4L80E Input Shaft Dimensions?

[MadMike]

I keep seeing these input shafts going for what I think is a really high price. I am starting to put together a machine shop in my garage and I'm wondering what kind of tooling to get if I wanted to make one.

I can figure out the tooling, but I just need to know what the difference is between the 2, or the dimensions of the new one? Can you cut down a standard one, or does it have to be made from scratch? Again I can figure out that part if i knew what i needed.

Maybe side-by-side pics would help too...

FYI I'm a pretty decent machinist, and far from just a hobbist. At a minimum I could get a print to a NC shop and have it made, hardened, all that...

Thanks in advance.

 

[fivetodrive]

Re: 4L80E Input Shaft Dimensions?

The problem is the internal splining of a blind hole. PERIOD - (edit spelling fix) thanks John

That is why they are so expensive. You need a special machine to do it and then make the fixture to hold the shaft in place while you spline the blind hole.

Making the shaft is the easy part.

After all of the legwork to get Mark Williams to make the ones that I had made I only ended up with $200 to cover all of the trips to the machine shop, the shipping and fronting $2000 to get them started and the $3400 yesterday to pick up the rest. I posted the invoice. So after all of that I dont mind if someone else wants to take on the headache. Jeff I understand why you did not want to make any more!!!

The reason I went with Mark Williams is that the enginering has been done, the tooling made and the programs done so that the shafts will always be available.

I dont have any problem sending you any of my spare parts that Mark used to make them.
Just be sure to find someone or get a machine to do the internal splines.

 

[STOUT74]

Re: 4L80E Input Shaft Dimensions?

No need to defend yourself Aaron, you did a great job with this. Way to take the bull by the horns, although I think you meant PERIOD. Those "in the know" know how much work these are. My friends have well over a million dollars in equipment. We looked into doing these, and as Aaron said, the internal splines are a bitch, the external splines aren't easy either. It takes a special machine just for that process. If you really think you could make them, make the investment & buy one, take it to your local machine shop & see what kind of price they'll make them for. Once you find out there isn't any money in it, you can put it back up on the site to sell for what you paid for it, I'm sure it'll go quick.:2cents:

 

[JSM]

Re: 4L80E Input Shaft Dimensions?

As mentioned gears/splines are one of the hardest things to do right, and take special equipment. I have a mill and lathe in my garage myself and don't stand a chance at doing them. External there are some ways to get by, but it is a compromise.

If you truly want to look into doing it right you will need a gear hobbing machine.

I work daily in a machine shop with a LOT of equipment that would make most people drool. (20 FOOT dia. lathe, milling machine the size of a 4 car garage, lathe that can turn a tube 40+ ft long). We have several gear machines for inspection, etc. but only 1 gear hobber and I am not sure it is of a configuration to do them.

You will also need an od/id grinder.

Basic manufacturing process would be
Rough turn shaft blanks
drill cross hole(s)
spline OD/ID
heat treat
grind required surfaces

Depending you may do 2 heat treats.


I think the saying goes do you know why a divorce is so expensive, because it is worth it.

Same with the shafts, they are expensive because they are not easy to do.

 

[MadMike]

Re: 4L80E Input Shaft Dimensions?

OK. I hear ya... I know it isnt that simple, and the cost isnt that bad. But to me I could use it buy tooling. I'm sure most people run into splines or gears and run into a dead end. I'll setup a shaper and a rotor table.... big woop... Or maybe they let the mysterious machine shop magic happen and cant convey what they need done simply or have no idea.

I know (sort of, still need to spec it out).... And I'm sure it is a bit of a pain. And I'm sure I don't really want the headache. But that said. I could do some and shop out some....

Just wanted to take a sniff. Tired of looking at all of these parts, thinking i could just make them for the most part and justify buying some tools.

I don't understand the defensive response. What's the secret? Maybe I'll go thru all of the effort myself, and try n make a business of it, J/K OR we could just share the details so those of use with some capability could take advantage.

All I really asked for was some specs. Probaly should've skipped the internet engineering and just looked at it. It's probably not much of a bigger deal then making a standard one, with a short end.

But I thought maybe someone could help. I thought thats what this forum was for. I could be picking apart peoples kits they sell and all that, but i'm not trying to mess with anyones business. I just think we can do better in some cases. And in the end, I just want to make my own parts and if I could offer a batch up to improve my cost then great.

In the end, no one selling a product here for a far price should be worried about sharing some info because in the end your right, "That's what is costs. And no one is in business to do anything for free" , but a little charity would be nice once in a while for such a 'tight' group. You are right I could buy anything n copy it.

Alot of this stuff is good on stock 4.3's S trucks too. V6's are as popular as ever...

 

[fivetodrive]

Re: 4L80E Input Shaft Dimensions?

I don't understand the defensive response. What's the secret? Maybe I'll go thru all of the effort myself, and try n make a business of it, J/K OR we could just share the details so those of use with some capability could take advantage.

All I really asked for was some specs. Probaly should've skipped the internet engineering and just looked at it. It's probably not much of a bigger deal then making a standard one, with a short end.

But I thought maybe someone could help. I thought thats what this forum was for. I could be picking apart peoples kits they sell and all that, but i'm not trying to mess with anyones business. I just think we can do better in some cases. And in the end, I just want to make my own parts and if I could offer a batch up to improve my cost then great.

In the end, no one selling a product here for a far price should be worried about sharing some info because in the end your right, "That's what is costs. And no one is in business to do anything for free" , but a little charity would be nice once in a while for such a 'tight' group. You are right I could buy anything n copy it.

Alot of this stuff is good on stock 4.3's S trucks too. V6's are as popular as ever...

I am sorry if it sounded defensive. That was not my intent at all. I was just trying to show why they were so expensive!

I am 100% behind you! I am still offering up all of the parts that I gave Mark Williams to make them.

If you have the ability I would love to see someone respline a stock input shaft as was suggested before by Jeff Scott.

That would be great because then we could have STOUT74 make another round of adapters that are a little thinner and we would not have to do so much custom work.

Keep at it!!! I cant help much more because I don't have a set of calipers long enough to give you the exact dimensions or I would.

Aaron

 

[JSM]

Re: 4L80E Input Shaft Dimensions?

There is no secret, its a stock input shaft with a 32 spline, most make the input side of shaft a bit longer. That's it.

Not sure what you were exactly looking for beyond that?

Starting with stock input shafts and re-splining would be a good way to setup and try to do the hardest part of it. If you can do that the rest is easier (not easy).

I am assuming if you have machines, you also have tools to measure a stock shaft for dimensions.

 

[djsy934]

Re: 4L80E Input Shaft Dimensions?

If you have the ability I would love to see someone respline a stock input shaft as was suggested before by Jeff Scott.

That would be great because then we could have STOUT74 make another round of adapters that are a little thinner and we would not have to do so much custom work.

Keep at it!!! I cant help much more because I don't have a set of calipers long enough to give you the exact dimensions or I would.

Aaron

Actually re-splining could be an option, measuring the splines of a stock shaft vs a 32 spline shaft there is enough material to clean up. The major dia. of the splines of a stock shaft is approx. 1.19 and the minor dia. of a 32 spline is 1.28 (quickly measured with calipers). They both have the same O.D. of where the seal goes, a 32 spline shaft has a thinner wall. The method we would use to cut the splines would be E.D.M. (Electrical Discharge Machining) because of the hardness. My only concern would be if the stock shafts are through hard or just case hard, if they are only case hard the splines would no longer be heat treated (case hard only penetrates so deep). As far as the adapters, the ones already made could be re-machined shorter. With a shorter adapter the RPM cross member will no longer line up.

 

[fivetodrive]

Re: 4L80E Input Shaft Dimensions?

How would you heat treat just the splines? That was another concern...

Another concern on the resplining of the stock imput shaft is the length of the output shaft on a 4l80e 4x4 tranny. I dont know the length of it. I know that there are some that you can cut down, Many of the Vans had these but I dont know about of the 4x4 ones.

The cross members can easily be modified to take into account the difference but you still need new driveshafts...

 

[STOUT74]

Re: 4L80E Input Shaft Dimensions?

How would you heat treat just the splines? That was another concern...

Another concern on the resplining of the stock imput shaft is the length of the output shaft on a 4l80e 4x4 tranny. I dont know the length of it. I know that there are some that you can cut down, Many of the Vans had these but I dont know about of the 4x4 ones.

The cross members can easily be modified to take into account the difference but you still need new driveshafts...

You can't just heat treat the splines, you'd have to do the whole thing. Problem there, the shaft would have to be reground & it's not material safe. As for the output shafts on the 4L80E, the 2WD output shafts are longer. I'm having Jake's Performance build my 80E & we were talking about using a 2WD shortened output shaft to get MAXIMUM depth for spline engagement. I'm not sure if there's a way to test a stock shaft to see if they're case or thru hardened. If they're thru hardened, it might be as easy, in relative terms, to respline the stock shaft & make a thinner adapter. I'll talk to John over the weekend & see what we can come up with.

 

[JSM]

Re: 4L80E Input Shaft Dimensions?

Induction hardening can do spot heat treating and how I suspect the stock shafts were done.

 

[STOUT74]

Re: 4L80E Input Shaft Dimensions?

OK. I hear ya... I know it isnt that simple, and the cost isnt that bad. But to me I could use it buy tooling. I'm sure most people run into splines or gears and run into a dead end. I'll setup a shaper and a rotor table.... big woop... Or maybe they let the mysterious machine shop magic happen and cant convey what they need done simply or have no idea.

I know (sort of, still need to spec it out).... And I'm sure it is a bit of a pain. And I'm sure I don't really want the headache. But that said. I could do some and shop out some....

Just wanted to take a sniff. Tired of looking at all of these parts, thinking i could just make them for the most part and justify buying some tools.

I don't understand the defensive response. What's the secret? Maybe I'll go thru all of the effort myself, and try n make a business of it, J/K OR we could just share the details so those of use with some capability could take advantage.

All I really asked for was some specs. Probaly should've skipped the internet engineering and just looked at it. It's probably not much of a bigger deal then making a standard one, with a short end.

But I thought maybe someone could help. I thought thats what this forum was for. I could be picking apart peoples kits they sell and all that, but i'm not trying to mess with anyones business. I just think we can do better in some cases. And in the end, I just want to make my own parts and if I could offer a batch up to improve my cost then great.

In the end, no one selling a product here for a far price should be worried about sharing some info because in the end your right, "That's what is costs. And no one is in business to do anything for free" , but a little charity would be nice once in a while for such a 'tight' group. You are right I could buy anything n copy it.

Alot of this stuff is good on stock 4.3's S trucks too. V6's are as popular as ever...

I think it's great you want to get involved in making a lot of your own parts, I do. I just think the first part your trying to machine is going to require more than you may know, no offense meant. If your going to try & offset some of the cost of tooling up, I just don't see it there. I have no idea what a gear hobbing machine costs, but I know a lathe & bridgeport with DRO's in good shape aren't going to be cheap. If you want, I'll email you the cad/cam file of my input shaft that we modeled up to get you started, JLMK.:tup:. If you really want to make these, there's no substitute to having a finished shaft in your hand that is proven to work and back engineer it from there.

 

[STOUT74]

Re: 4L80E Input Shaft Dimensions?

Induction hardening can do spot heat treating and how I suspect the stock shafts were done.

Hey Jeff, is the result case or thru hardening.

Never mind, found it. Case hardened. Hmmm, may work.

A widely used process for the surface hardening of steel. The components are heated by means of an alternating magnetic field to a temperature within or above the transformation range followed by immediate quenching. The core of the component remains unaffected by the treatment and its physical properties are those of the bar from which it was machined, whilst the hardness of the case can be within the range 37/58 HRC.?

 

[djsy934]

Re: 4L80E Input Shaft Dimensions?

Induction hardening can do spot heat treating and how I suspect the stock shafts were done.

Not a heat treat expert by no means but I do work alot with heat treated steels. I took a file to the center (away from the splines) of the stock shaft and its harder than a whores heart. If it is case hardened they did the whole shaft, not just the splines and bearing surfaces. If we did re-spline the end and had to have it spot treated I would think the 1.75 bearing and seal fit would move out of spec.I'm thinking the only way to tell is to cut one in half and have the core Rockwell tested. It is also possible that the end we are working with is only .275 thick and depending how deep the hardening is that area could be fully heat treated, we could cut a section of spline and test that area.

 

[JSM]

Re: 4L80E Input Shaft Dimensions?

I suspect with some prior research they used induction for the whole shaft for a couple reasons.

#1 it can be done quickly, we are talking production line stuff
#2 they wanted the case hard, but the guts inside more flexible (remember hard is brittle also)

take a grinder or cut off material from the outside and do a new hardness test. Get past the case part of things. I agree the whole outside is done, but the guts inside are probably softer ~30 range.

 

[djsy934]

Re: 4L80E Input Shaft Dimensions?

I suspect with some prior research they used induction for the whole shaft for a couple reasons.

#1 it can be done quickly, we are talking production line stuff
#2 they wanted the case hard, but the guts inside more flexible (remember hard is brittle also)

take a grinder or cut off material from the outside and do a new hardness test. Get past the case part of things. I agree the whole outside is done, but the guts inside are probably softer ~30 range.

I agree with both. It probably isn't going to be practical to re-spline. Out of curiosity, we could slice one up and test it. We would use wire EDM which is submerged in water and would not induce heat while cutting. We would need a shaft someone is willing to destroy.

If Mark Williams is willing to keep making these, I think that would be the best way to go. :tup:

 

[TYTILIDIE]

Re: 4L80E Input Shaft Dimensions?

When I went up to see Mark Williams about making these shafts, he walked me around the shop and showed me a little bit of how they would be made. It is pretty complex. I can't imagine that it would be worth it for you by the time you buy the machines. They looked pretty damn expensive to me. There aren't enough conversions going on to justify the cost.Plus, the cost is well worth it. Can you tell me it costs too much when it is something you will likely buy once?

Before I did my 80e conversion, I thought they were over priced as well but once I did it and drove down the road with confidence that I wont likely have to walk home $650 seemed like a great deal.

Aaron, now you see why it was so easy to have you take that project over. Even though I spent a lot of time on it and was really excited to do it there is always someone who thinks you're time and effort is worthless. Which it is because you didn't make but a few bucks, probably didn't even cover the time you spent shipping and making trips to Mark Williams. People don't get stuff like that until they go through it themselves and realize that it's just not worth it to try and "help out".

At least the guys that actually ponied up are grateful.

 

[JSM]

Re: 4L80E Input Shaft Dimensions?

I agree with both. It probably isn't going to be practical to re-spline. Out of curiosity, we could slice one up and test it. We would use wire EDM which is submerged in water and would not induce heat while cutting. We would need a shaft someone is willing to destroy.

If Mark Williams is willing to keep making these, I think that would be the best way to go. :tup:

I have machined other trans parts and done hardness checks on them. I am fairly confident it is purely case hardened.

Normal cutting done right won't add hardness, no need for a wire EDM simple lathe or mill can cut through the hard layer. On that note I was involved in buying 2 new wire EDM's in my career. They are GREAT machines. Too bad they won't do a blind spline though.

I have thought of a lot of out of the box ideas on how to respline stock shafts with "standard" equipment. Shaper is one way, and you can get a shaper attachment for a bridgeport. Combine with rotary head and it is doable, but time consuming.

I even machined a back plate for the chuch on my lathe that happens to have 32 holes. This allows me to index the chuck for the 32 spline teeth, my next step was to develop a "shaper" type attachment and tool to cut the spline profile. As it moved back and forth you could move the cross slide out to get the right depth. Doable but lots of work, and very time consuming to spline 1 offs. Then you have heat treatment to consider if you spline past the hard layer. My thought was to do 1 shaft and just test it and see. Someone at 400hp will probably be fine, at what level will they need one of the full custom shafts is the question.

If someone is serious and has equipment I would be glad to give some ideas I have had through the many years I have been involved in the 4l80e conversions.

 

[STOUT74]

Re: 4L80E Input Shaft Dimensions?

I think John meant cutting the shaft in half with the wire EDM, that way it could be tested without changing the original heat treat. We have 3 EDM's. A wire EDM, a hole popper, and a Sinker EDM. Sinker EDM=no problem on a blind hole if we decide to re-burn the splines in the stock shaft.:tup:

 

[JSM]

Re: 4L80E Input Shaft Dimensions?

I think John meant cutting the shaft in half with the wire EDM. We have 3 EDM's. A wire EDM, a hole popper, and a Sinker EDM. Sinker EDM=no problem on a blind hole if we decide to re-burn the splines in the stock shaft.:tup:

Sinker EDM would be the quickest way to respline a stock shaft. And honestly we could send the shaft after to do a complete heat treat.

I suspect a resplined shaft will work for 80% of people's builds, the other 20% would want another alternative.

I have also come to realize it doesn't matter if a part cost $10 or $1000. In general people expect the same quality and performance. Lets say you offer a respline service for 50% of cost of new. Some customers are going to expect it to perform just like an all new shaft at double the price.

If you only offer the best of of the best, price point doesn't work for some people.

No win situation.