Alky install on Ty

[0966Sy]

Alky install on Ty

So I decided to mount the nozzle pre-IC just to experiment on what I believe will help control stock IC temps. After some discussion with a few peeps running meth on other charged vehicles and a search on the forums about nozzle location I feel comfortable trying it. I have an extra stock IC to use as a test mule. When I get the system going I'll log with and without results using the meth. I'd like to see the difference in intake temps pre-IC and post-IC injecting the meth under the same racing conditions.

I'm in bit of a laptop dilemma as my vista is stuck on an update and giving me hell. Keeping me from using the BS3 software. I haven't finished the alky install yet but I'm moving forward trying to figure out this laptop situation.

 

[It's just a six]

Re: Alky install on Ty

Your intake temps are going to be hotter & it is not a good idea to install the nozzle where you put it.:2cents:

 

[DaveP]

Re: Alky install on Ty

Dave, I'm having trouble locating the hole you suggested. Could you give me a more detailed description of where? Thanks.

No longer needed. OP saw it:

It's a good idea but I'm already utilizing it to hold down the base for my alky tank.

 

[0966Sy]

Thanks Dave, I was mistaken. I've never heard that called a child safety restraint. I thought it was for a floor mounted spare as I've seen. It's a good idea but I'm already utilizing it to hold down the base for my alky tank.

 

[0966Sy]

Alky install on Ty

Your intake temps are going to be hotter & it is not a good idea to install the nozzle where you put it.:2cents:

How much hotter? And what evidence do you have? I could not find any info on temps pre-IC vs post-IC. Yea I've been told it's better to be post-IC, based on assumptions.
I don't mind debating the pro's and con's in this thread. I'm more challenged to do it based on the lack of evidence I found. I believe the alky directly contacting the IATS is responsible for the lower intake temps. I want to experiment and see if I can get close to same results pre IC which I believe would confirm more accurate IAT data.

 

[Don W.]

Re: Alky install on Ty

Funny, my first thought was will it fit next to the AC? This will be interesting as you're cooling the air before the IC. Everyone else does it after. Would the net cooling not be the same??? Awaiting results.

 

[It's just a six]

Re: Alky install on Ty

How cold is the water going through the intercooler?
Since the alky will be going through the fins of the intercooler, it will be hotter than not going through the hotter fins, the transfer of heat is taking place somewhere, no?

Placing the nozzle after the intercooler is only going to pick up/transfer, heat from the manifold, not from the intercooler fins & the manifold? In other words,,, It will not as efficient to lower your intake temps.

Plus IIRC, placing the nozzle before the fins could cause alky to puddle & if could possibly back fire & have a fire?

Methanol is corrosive & could cause the fins in the intercooler to corrode?

Don't think these are assumptions, IIRC Devils own had done these tests or there customers have?

What I can see that could happen is , it will lower the water temps for the intercooler, but for 10-15 second bursts, probably not too much.

 

[0966Sy]

Alky install on Ty

How cold is the water going through the intercooler?

I have no data on this, I'd like to add a gauge to the upper IC to monitor the water temp.

Since the alky will be going through the fins of the intercooler, it will be hotter than not going through the hotter fins, the transfer of heat is taking place somewhere, no?

Yes, I agree here. I have doubts that the raise in temperature of the alcohol going through the IC fins will be enough to effect it's performance. Burning it's atomization in the combustion chamber is where the engine gets it's performance from the alcohol.

Placing the nozzle after the intercooler is only going to pick up/transfer, heat from the manifold, not from the intercooler fins & the manifold?

The alcohol is traveling to be burned in the combustion chamber, not to cool the upper and lower intake manifolds. Getting the alcohol into the combustion is the purpose is it not? Heat transfer in the combustion is what we're looking for, lowering cylinder combustion temps.

Plus IIRC, placing the nozzle before the fins could cause alky to puddle & if could possibly back fire & have a fire?

The stock IC does not have much of an area to allow puddling IMO. What would cause this puddling? Closed TPS while spraying? Wouldn't that cause puddling in the IC regardless pre or post IC.

Methanol is corrosive & could cause the fins in the intercooler to corrode?

Possible, if it doesn't corrode the TB and manifold I don't see the core in the IC being a problem.

Lots of ZL1's are using meth injection, it's traveling through the TB into the blower and through the liquid/air heat exchanger in the manifold before enteringthe combustion chamber.

 

[atkonkler]

Re: Alky install on Ty

Thanks for sharing Don, I plan to mount this same tank in that spot when my Sy is complete. I made a large step today after work, my brainstorming has paid off on this step. I have cut a 18"x18" textured abs plastic sheet 3/16 thick. 1" slides under the inner fender cover and keeps it square against the wheel well tunel. I removed the tie down buckle on the floor and will drill a hole through the abs base to secure to this position. It will keep it from moving around in the back with no drilling into the floor. The tank straps will be bolted to the abs plastic base with a rubber isolator between the strap/base. Ran out of time for now, should bolt it up tomorrow and start routing the wiring/hoses.

How much was that tank?

 

[Don W.]

Re: Alky install on Ty

How much was that tank?

You're asking me? $88.50 back in 2008 from Jegs.

 

[0966Sy]

How much was that tank?

Read the bottom of post #21

 

[It's just a six]

Re: Alky install on Ty

I have no data on this, I'd like to add a gauge to the upper IC to monitor the water temp.


Yes, I agree here. I have doubts that the raise in temperature of the alcohol going through the IC fins will be enough to effect it's performance. Burning it's atomization in the combustion chamber is where the engine gets it's performance from the alcohol.


The alcohol is traveling to be burned in the combustion chamber, not to cool the upper and lower intake manifolds. Getting the alcohol into the combustion is the purpose is it not? Heat transfer in the combustion is what we're looking for, lowering cylinder combustion temps.


The stock IC does not have much of an area to allow puddling IMO. What would cause this puddling? Closed TPS while spraying? Wouldn't that cause puddling in the IC regardless pre or post IC.

I am just thinking since the spray is going through fins, it has more of a chance to turn more into a solid droplets than a fine mist?


Possible, if it doesn't corrode the TB and manifold I don't see the core in the IC being a problem.

I believe it starts to form light surface corrosion on the manifold & other bare aluminum parts & eventually could get worse as time goes by. Look @ manifolds, blowers etc, just from being exposed to ambient moist climates, they corrode. Not saying it will completely rot through., But given enough time exposed to methanol, who knows.?

Lots of ZL1's are using meth injection, it's traveling through the TB into the blower and through the liquid/air heat exchanger in the manifold before enteringthe combustion chamber.

Again, Not saying it will rot through right away, just thinking time will see how they will look further down the rode & look for surface corrosion as compared to an engine that does not use meth. Just something to think about. That's all.

I remember on Devils own forum reading a pre turbo alky nozzle install discussion.

If the nozzle is not directly placed over the center of the turbos compressor wheel & or pointed incorrectly to the side wall , it would cause droplets which in turn will wipe out & wear the compressor wheel.

Also if the nozzle did not cut off the meth flow, droplets would wipe out the compressor wheel. Droplets of meth is not as efficient as say a fog of methanol.

Same for fuel injector nozzles, the finer the spray the more power it can make, better mileage & so-on.

This is why they try to make a lot of pressure before it sprays fuel or meth, better atomization.

Look @ the fuel pressures on todays direct injection system, very, very high fuel pressure.

Sorry, not good at explaining things.

 

[Don W.]

Re: Alky install on Ty

I can easily get 50*+ temp drop at full boost with the meth. It's easy to go to far and performane is reduced. There does seem to be a sweet spot. My question has always been does added HP come from a much cooler intake of the burning of alky? It's a combination obviously but it would take a dyno and some special setups to measure. Otherwise it's all subjective.

 

[It's just a six]

Re: Alky install on Ty

I did dyno tune my stock Sy w/an alky control system.

All engines are different, but I got peak HP w/an A/F ratio of 10.8.

396 HP & 604 ft lbs of torque.

 

[0966Sy]

I made some progress over the weekend that will probably give Dave P nightmares :horse: after a few beers I decided to drill a 1/4 hole for the vent on the tank into the LR fender well. This seemed like a logical place as it was easily done without removing any trim panels or even jacking up the rear. And if removed at some point could easily be removed and plugged.

The pressure hose runs along the driver side inside trim unseen and comes out under the brake booster with filter and check valve above the booster.

Over along to the objective nozzle placement, I'm still on the fence. Who knows till you try it, results will be coming soon

The rear tank mount I'm pretty happy with, here it is lacking the pump ground and low level sensor wiring being hooked up. The power harness is ran under the rear seat cover flap thing and ran up to the glove box area where the control module will be mounted for easy access to pump settings. Pictures of the controller mounted maybe tomorrow.

 

[Don W.]

Re: Alky install on Ty

Sweet. Personally I wouldn't like it in the passenger area but what do you do? Just a reminder that alky burns without a visible flame, but can be extinguished with water. (Wikipedia) IOW make sure there are no leaks.

Once you begin to tune, log everything and make very small adjustments. Might be useful to note the initial settings of everything. I've rigged up a couple of test wires off the controller to measure volts sent to the pump. I base everything on two settings. Turn-on and initial. I set turn-on by power braking, watching boost and seeing where the LED starts to come on. Next I set initial. This is where it gets strange, at least for me.

With motor running (for consistent system voltage), volt meter across my pump wires, I turn the "rate" knob all the way up. (Again just for consistency) Then briefly (just enough to get a good reading) I look at pump volts. Any longer and the motor floods and dies. I set my initial within .1 volts +/- of 2.0 volts. My system is EXTREMELY sensitive for whatever reason so this is the only way I've found to make measurable, in DM, adjustments. Return "rate" knob to mid point and make a test pull watching and logging IATs, mixture, and spark retard, and, usually, RPM.

I keep spark retard as the bottom trace in DM so it's easy to see at a glance.

Now remember my system is old, I've not seen Julio's newer instruction set or anything else so none of this may apply but HTH otherwise.:roll:

I've never seen anyone post their "method" before so just thought I throw mine out there.:2cents:

 

[0966Sy]

Thanks a lot Don, your instructions are dead on to Julio's. I plan to verify my turn on at 5psi and start from there with my current timing map in BS3 which is really conservative 14* max at 18psi. I'll monitor transient fuel correction and make changes working my way up to WOT, adding timing after reading plugs. BS3 adjusts fueling +/- 25%, while no KR available with BS3 I'll proceed cautiously. My AFR target might get slightly changed, but not by much. Of course I will be saving the current tune and saving the Meth changes on a separate file to go back and compare results in logs.

 

[0966Sy]

So I have everything hooked up, bleed the air from the line up to the filter and primed up the pump. The on LED would not go from red to green with the test button. I increased the gain knob to six from 4 and it then would change green. Went for a quick drive and on/red at 5psi and would go green by 8psi. Only went to 10psi on test drive. Got back and checking test button again now will not go green only red. Read the startup instructions again, mentions if the test button does not change from red/green then the adjustment screw on the pump may need to be adjusted. I went clockwise turn by turn with no change to red, only while driving it would turn green at 8-10psi. Now I have lost track of where the adjustment screw on the pump "was" with no real description in the instructions as to where or how to adjust this Allen head pressure set screw on the pump.

I am getting a spray at idle the led does not go green like the instructions say it should during idle holding the test button. It stays red, is what's getting me is it went green the first time I tested it. Another short road test concludes that after I adjusted Allen screw on pump too much +/- now the led stays red and does not change green at 8-10psi as before.

So now I'm lost on Allen screw adjustment on pump and I have removed the filter and blew it out checking for a restriction. Nothing found clogging filter. Filter is installed with arrow facing direction of flow. Test button moves fluid out of line at a low rate disconnected from filter. I have double checked the preset turn on and initial setting with the instructions and they are in correct position for a 3bar map sensor.

Julio's instructions say that the test button supplies initial pressure to pump and should turn LED green at idle holding test for a couple seconds. Just lost loosing valuable tuning time, I won't be able to contact Julio until Monday so looking for any help I can get with this turn on red/green LED.

 

[Don W.]

Re: Alky install on Ty

FWIW I have never attempted adjustment of the screw on the pump. After finding some wiring gremlins, power to the alky system being one of them I will, in effect, be starting over.

It's not dificult to put a gauge on the knozzle line. It will pulsate widely at high pressures. I'm cogitating on a surge supressor of some sort.

 

[0966Sy]

FWIW I have never attempted adjustment of the screw on the pump. After finding some wiring gremlins, power to the alky system being one of them I will, in effect, be starting over.

It's not dificult to put a gauge on the knozzle line. It will pulsate widely at high pressures. I'm cogitating on a surge supressor of some sort.

I found that Julio sets the pump to 50psi at 4volts, now where that screw position is for 50psi on the Allen screw who knows. I'm assuming increasing pressure is clockwise on the screw. Don, could you tell me where your screw position on the pump is roughly? When I went to adjust mine I remember I could see a thread or two on the screw. Right now I have the Allen head flush with the top of the threaded hole.