Installed Ultimate & 50# Inj. - now truck barely runs
- Thread starter mrweelr
- Start date
ed hess
race or get outta the way
I can understand taking it offline but
Since tempers and patience levels have changed and everyone is back to being rational again. i sure would like to hear what the outcome is for my own education as well as others. This thread will definatley educate many of us
ed
Since tempers and patience levels have changed and everyone is back to being rational again. i sure would like to hear what the outcome is for my own education as well as others. This thread will definatley educate many of us
ed
Mrweelr
Do you know for sure that your 3 bar map is good and is infact a 3 bar map sensor?
Did you pressure test your intake for leaks?
Why do you remove the upper manifold to swap injectors (not neccessary)?
Did you recheck all your vacuum lines?
Are all your sensors plugged in , MAT, TPS, IAC, etc?
These are things you need to confirm are good before assuming chip or injectors are bad. It is very possible that they may be bad, but check the other stuff first.
All you little girls stop your bitching and look at Will's nudie pics!
Do you know for sure that your 3 bar map is good and is infact a 3 bar map sensor?
Did you pressure test your intake for leaks?
Why do you remove the upper manifold to swap injectors (not neccessary)?
Did you recheck all your vacuum lines?
Are all your sensors plugged in , MAT, TPS, IAC, etc?
These are things you need to confirm are good before assuming chip or injectors are bad. It is very possible that they may be bad, but check the other stuff first.
All you little girls stop your bitching and look at Will's nudie pics!
mrweelr
New member
I agree Ed. However, Brian may prefer to troubleshoot this offline with me. I will be sure to post whatever the solution is. I don't care who's fault it is - I just want my truck fixed. If I screwed something up, I'll be the first to admit it. I'm still leaning toward the injectors though.
Does anyone have detailed pics of the Delphi injectors? Before I installed them, I compared them to the stockers and the jets looked very different. Are there any specific numbers I can look for to identify the 50#'ers?
Does anyone have detailed pics of the Delphi injectors? Before I installed them, I compared them to the stockers and the jets looked very different. Are there any specific numbers I can look for to identify the 50#'ers?
Got the files.
No codes or anything jumps out at me as big issues, pointing towards chip hardware/ecm issues, but that doesn't mean too much, as some hardware problems will still show up ok on scan tool.
The only issue I see is that once your truck is warmed up, and idling, the IAC is at 0 for a while... no truck should idle at that level. A serious vacuum leak could show up like this, and it does take a while for the RPM to come down to the idle speeds the chip is desiring. I looked over my truck's latest run, IAC was in the 20s, VE and Inj pw were nearly identical.
I think you need to check for a vacuum leak at this point.. if you are convinced you don't have one (I'm not) I can check the chip out here. A vacuum leak will make the truck run like shit for sure, not sure if it'd cause plugs to foul out, but I suppose anything is possible, especially if the leak is also leaking map signal to the FPR.
No codes or anything jumps out at me as big issues, pointing towards chip hardware/ecm issues, but that doesn't mean too much, as some hardware problems will still show up ok on scan tool.
The only issue I see is that once your truck is warmed up, and idling, the IAC is at 0 for a while... no truck should idle at that level. A serious vacuum leak could show up like this, and it does take a while for the RPM to come down to the idle speeds the chip is desiring. I looked over my truck's latest run, IAC was in the 20s, VE and Inj pw were nearly identical.
I think you need to check for a vacuum leak at this point.. if you are convinced you don't have one (I'm not) I can check the chip out here. A vacuum leak will make the truck run like shit for sure, not sure if it'd cause plugs to foul out, but I suppose anything is possible, especially if the leak is also leaking map signal to the FPR.
mrweelr
New member
TightEdge -
Yes, I'm positive it's a 3-bar MAP. It's a brand new one from GMPartsdirect and my stock boost gauge stays in the green under boost so I know it's not 2-BAR. Yes, it could be defective but I don't have another one to test with.
I pressure tested my intake for leaks a few weeks ago - that's how I found out my TB shaft was leaking (common problem). I will go ahead and check this again today but I have not yet found any vacuum leaks (18-19 Hg at idle).
I removed the upper intake to clean it out plus it's a whole lot easier to get to everything with it off. Next time, I'll try it with the upper in place.
All of the sensors are plugged in (TPS, MAT, IAT) and the only vacuum lines I unplugged are back where they were.
I can tell you what - it's NOT the installation because the truck drives fine at speed. It even idles and revs nice and smooth for the first minute or so after I start it, regardless of whether I'm using the 2-BAR or 3-Bar. The only constant is the injectors. Once the motor warms up, it starts sputtering and off idle it hesitates (feels like a miss) and then catches. The only way I can even get it to idle decently is with very low fuel pressure (35-40 psi). I put brand new plugs in yesterday so that's not it either. Rambling now...
Yes, I'm positive it's a 3-bar MAP. It's a brand new one from GMPartsdirect and my stock boost gauge stays in the green under boost so I know it's not 2-BAR. Yes, it could be defective but I don't have another one to test with.
I pressure tested my intake for leaks a few weeks ago - that's how I found out my TB shaft was leaking (common problem). I will go ahead and check this again today but I have not yet found any vacuum leaks (18-19 Hg at idle).
I removed the upper intake to clean it out plus it's a whole lot easier to get to everything with it off. Next time, I'll try it with the upper in place.
All of the sensors are plugged in (TPS, MAT, IAT) and the only vacuum lines I unplugged are back where they were.
I can tell you what - it's NOT the installation because the truck drives fine at speed. It even idles and revs nice and smooth for the first minute or so after I start it, regardless of whether I'm using the 2-BAR or 3-Bar. The only constant is the injectors. Once the motor warms up, it starts sputtering and off idle it hesitates (feels like a miss) and then catches. The only way I can even get it to idle decently is with very low fuel pressure (35-40 psi). I put brand new plugs in yesterday so that's not it either. Rambling now...
I can tell you what - it's NOT the installation because the truck drives fine at speed. It even idles and revs nice and smooth for the first minute or so after I start it, regardless of whether I'm using the 2-BAR or 3-Bar.
Seriously, it doesn't matter how it acts. At startup, it's going to be rich, and may mask vacuum leaks, bad sensors, etc etc. At cruise it can be masked as well, esp a vacuum leak that lets in minor amounts of air compared to what you are introducing into the engine through the throttle body. It may only affect transitions, creating horrible drivability, and if the fuel pressure isn't keeping up, it's going to hurt in boost. Have you verified your fuel pressure is following manifold pressure? I say following manifold pressure, because it as just as important for the fuel pressure to be pulled down by vacuum as it is for it to be increased with boost.
Seriously, it doesn't matter how it acts. At startup, it's going to be rich, and may mask vacuum leaks, bad sensors, etc etc. At cruise it can be masked as well, esp a vacuum leak that lets in minor amounts of air compared to what you are introducing into the engine through the throttle body. It may only affect transitions, creating horrible drivability, and if the fuel pressure isn't keeping up, it's going to hurt in boost. Have you verified your fuel pressure is following manifold pressure? I say following manifold pressure, because it as just as important for the fuel pressure to be pulled down by vacuum as it is for it to be increased with boost.
mrweelr
New member
Brian - I figured it out...it's the Ultimate! Pulled the 50# injectors today and installed the stockers back in there and to my surprise the truck still ran like garbage. At this point, I knew it couldn't be the injectors since the symptoms were identical with either set of injectors. So I put the 50# injectors back in with the 3-bar and Ultimate and it still ran like crud (hesitation and backfiring on acceleration). I was really starting to worry at this point because I though I had already determined that the Ultimate was OK yesterday but I was wrong. I yanked the Ultimate and immediately the truck idled perfectly and had good snappy throttle response. I then put the Ultimate back in with the stock chip piggybacked to it and it ran like shit again.
So right now I have the 50# injectors installed with the stock chip only and the 2-Bar MAP sensor. It idles perfectly and I drove it around quite a bit with decent results. It runs well except when I go wide open it bogs and misses (feels too rich). I'm assuming this is normal behavior when using the stock chip with 50# injectors? Please confirm.
I did check for vacuum leaks and there are none. I do have leaks at the throttle body shaft and a few other places but only when I apply a lot of pressure to the IC inlet. I'd like to send this Ultimate to you so you can test it on another truck. Either I'm not installing it correctly (99% not likely) or it's bad. Tell me where to ship it. I'll send it via USPS priority first thing Tuesday morning.
Thanks :wink:
So right now I have the 50# injectors installed with the stock chip only and the 2-Bar MAP sensor. It idles perfectly and I drove it around quite a bit with decent results. It runs well except when I go wide open it bogs and misses (feels too rich). I'm assuming this is normal behavior when using the stock chip with 50# injectors? Please confirm.
I did check for vacuum leaks and there are none. I do have leaks at the throttle body shaft and a few other places but only when I apply a lot of pressure to the IC inlet. I'd like to send this Ultimate to you so you can test it on another truck. Either I'm not installing it correctly (99% not likely) or it's bad. Tell me where to ship it. I'll send it via USPS priority first thing Tuesday morning.
Thanks :wink:
Well don't expect the stock injectors to run well on the 50# calibrations... they are WAY off... i mean the stockers deliver nearly HALF the fuel per squirt, plus the fact I run the 50s in quasi-asynch mode, which would really F with it.
Send the chip back to me though, I'll check it...
pm'd you my addy
Send the chip back to me though, I'll check it...
pm'd you my addy
tyndago
New member
Modifiying cars.....modifying trucks......
I have been around cars all my life. I learned troubleshooting in the Navy - 6 years. I have had a Typhoon since 1992. I worked with Skylines for the last 3 years.
All it takes is one little thing for a car to not run correctly. I don't want to bore you with the litterally hundreds of little things that I have troubleshot or helped troubleshoot myself.
One of my big issues - one of the things I used to harp on people the most was -------IGNITION---------
So - so - so many people would have problems..... they would say " I changed the plugs , wires , and cap - and it runs like shit" . So I would tell them to do it again....no one would do it.....after all - these were all NEW parts...
Well someone would cut a wire- and it would short to ground under 5 lbs of boost - or burn though #4 to the downpipe - or crack a plug installing it.
99 times out of 100 - even after all NEW parts - it would be an ignition problem......go search the archives......
Its very easy to make a mistake - its also possible for parts to be bad. Its possible for "new" parts to be bad.
This is when its helpful to have "extra" parts or trucks around. Some tools you aren't going to have - some you may have to come up with.
I would check the actual output of your "3bar" map sensor and your "stock" map sensor. Plug a meter into it - test it at atmospheric pressure - test it at 15 psi if you have a pressure pump . You dont even need to know the actual readings - but you will know if they are pretty close - then you may have a bad or wrong map sensor.
I have seen people hurt the ECM - a wire to the ECM pullling it down.... I have gone though - found a loose wire - and pushed it back in and the truck ran right.
I have seen people not seat the chip correctly.
I have seen people not plug in the injectors correctly.
If it starts to run poorly when it gets warm - you could have a loose connector somewhere..... the hotter it gets the more resistance in the line.
Electricity is - Weird . This coming from a former Gas Turbine Electician in the US Navy for 6 years.
The part throttle transisitions could be opening up the circuit.... on some circuits - opening up a leg will cause the voltage to float at 2.1 volts which does some hell for some TTL logic stuff.
I have been around cars all my life. I learned troubleshooting in the Navy - 6 years. I have had a Typhoon since 1992. I worked with Skylines for the last 3 years.
All it takes is one little thing for a car to not run correctly. I don't want to bore you with the litterally hundreds of little things that I have troubleshot or helped troubleshoot myself.
One of my big issues - one of the things I used to harp on people the most was -------IGNITION---------
So - so - so many people would have problems..... they would say " I changed the plugs , wires , and cap - and it runs like shit" . So I would tell them to do it again....no one would do it.....after all - these were all NEW parts...
Well someone would cut a wire- and it would short to ground under 5 lbs of boost - or burn though #4 to the downpipe - or crack a plug installing it.
99 times out of 100 - even after all NEW parts - it would be an ignition problem......go search the archives......
Its very easy to make a mistake - its also possible for parts to be bad. Its possible for "new" parts to be bad.
This is when its helpful to have "extra" parts or trucks around. Some tools you aren't going to have - some you may have to come up with.
I would check the actual output of your "3bar" map sensor and your "stock" map sensor. Plug a meter into it - test it at atmospheric pressure - test it at 15 psi if you have a pressure pump . You dont even need to know the actual readings - but you will know if they are pretty close - then you may have a bad or wrong map sensor.
I have seen people hurt the ECM - a wire to the ECM pullling it down.... I have gone though - found a loose wire - and pushed it back in and the truck ran right.
I have seen people not seat the chip correctly.
I have seen people not plug in the injectors correctly.
If it starts to run poorly when it gets warm - you could have a loose connector somewhere..... the hotter it gets the more resistance in the line.
Electricity is - Weird . This coming from a former Gas Turbine Electician in the US Navy for 6 years.
The part throttle transisitions could be opening up the circuit.... on some circuits - opening up a leg will cause the voltage to float at 2.1 volts which does some hell for some TTL logic stuff.
if you got access to a volt meter- measure across ground and the output pin on the map sensor in question. i think the output pin is the middle pin. so strip it back and put the volt meter probe across it. without the engine running you should get a voltage around 1.7 volts with a 3 bar and 2.5 with a 2 bar. so if you measure 2.5 volts, you got a 2 bar and not a 3 bar. if you measure 0 volts you either got the wrong pin or the volt meter isnt hooked up properly or a defective map. if you measrue 5 volts you either have a defective map or your measuring the wrong pin. do this! you must determine if you actually have a 3 bar map. then worry about the other stuff. otherwise your chasing your tail.
FastDubb said:
(Sorry to go OT again...just saw this...)
How did I get brought into this? :roll:
Number one, it hasnt been even close to three years; number two, shit I just finalized my setup pretty recently (top end). Was doing one tranny then another, you guys know how tough that shit is, then decided to go different heads, then different this, then different that, suspension shit. So many different things...
When I am running, Ill go get timeslips. No talking shit, no childish bickering. I am completey happy with how meticulously my typhoon is getting worked on and amazed at some of the other stuff coming out of the shop. If I had a Typhoon because I wanted to make other people happy I would have sold it the first month I got it. I have it because I love it.
Not really looking for a response or starting shit here...just saw it and felt it warranted a quick response. Peace out!