Multichip display preview *movie added, second page*

[rockvillespeed]

i'm gonna throw in my 2 cents here, unasked - no flames meant in any way - me be switzerland (neutral for you history challenged).
brian and todd - bluntly, you guys are over reacting and being way too defensive of your project. mike/ara sells your units, as do i, as do i assume others, including yourselves. there is plenty of access to them, and i would assume anyone who could afford one and wants to do so has or will buy one.
equally bluntly, and no offense to PPITY, no one with a ton of sense is going to buy a non estd. component so critical to performance and not blowing your shit up. sure, it's possible he'll grow a market for his chips - if he does, good for him, and so what to you? it's not like there are any significant numbers of sy's or ty's still left, stock, etc - ie, there just aint much market, period.
i do feel there will be a significant market for these lcd displays, however - i know i want one. what will be a hit is the display combined with the aldl readouts - i'd eat my foot for that.
bottom line - for real - take a step back, everyone - look at the big picture - we're a small group, and we're never gonna have the big players on our side or get product from them - so more options benefit us all, product developers included.
also, consider this - if ppity has had "so many emails", then the market must be there to at least some degree - if he is gonna be selling to people that, for whatever reason, don't want yours, then it doesnt even affect you anyway.
as for todd "owning" the lcd design - bullshit. at least be straightforward in your bickering, guys.
again, this is all worth what it cost you to read it, but i see no reason for animosity here, boys and girls.
no one is making a living doing what it is you do, and no one is going to. end of story.

 

[PPI Typhoon]

"Where'd ya get that data? Just made it up ? "

I've been in contact with someone on DIY_EFI running a 749, and I came up curious because on your pages about 3-bar, you say about how there are changes in the actual code, and not the tables. So, I ask around to people that are donig 1-2 bar and 2-3 bar. I was told about those two locations, and that the first one was about rescaling in Promgrammer. I figured that was pretty cool, and just an unused bit in the code, because it works either way, with or without. The other?? I have no clue, and still to this date have no clue. If I change it, nothing happens in tables.

As for offering a standalone, you're right, that is your area. And it was just babbling. But the fact remains is that I haven't figured all of it out yet. See, the thing is that I DO have an EE and I DO have a background in programming, electroincs and manufacturing, so that's why I wanted to find source code, and figure out if there are code changes or not, or simply rescaled tables, and then the search to find out how to keep from throwing codes. If you have the source code hacked like you said.......you're damn right that it takes a long time. I've only gone through about half of it so far with labels and directions.


As for the help, I've seen other people ask questions (I do use the search function) and watch people get torn apart when they ask. Sure you don't want to get a free ride.......but how many people do you think out of the thousands of SyTy owners can actually bring a chip from the ground up and working? You don't have to be paranoid, and you'll still make a killing at what you do. As I've said in this board, and others, that you're the man when it comes to tuning. I've never dislputed that. But with some of the reactions I've seen.......I chose not to go to you for help. But this wasn't because I didn't want it. I just didn't want the crap that was associated with it.

And you think that someone wouldn't take the time to figure it out when I could have just gone and put your bins in my truck.

I don't want your bins in my truck, as it will only come along with the arrogance that you attach with it. Simple. Am I that stubborn? Yes. You might be clued into that by now.

I must admit though, that's the first time I've ever seen you say that you're not the only one that can figure it all out. But you can't be so arrogant to think that someone can't put in the time and figure it out.

Or can you? :roll:

 

[PPI Typhoon]

..

 

[smeagol]

Dan you just don't get it.

It's not that I'm stubborn, or need the finances, it's more about respect.

I have given away my "secrets" and all of my bins to people I trust & respect, and who would do the same for me. If I think they are going to go behind my back and give that info away, I don't pass it on. If I don't know them, same game. You want to call that a clique, fine and good. Those guys I trust & share information with would do the same for me.

So, if you'd like to come back and insult me, how I won't give up anything to anyone, that's fine and dandy. Even call me arrogant, pompous whatever, you still just don't get it. Wonder why you don't find the answers to all of it on DIY_EFI? Some of the guys there could figure things out in a hurry for sure, just that you don't put it out there on a silver platter for someone to steal.

I do think other people can figure this out, it's not rocket science, it was just blatantly obvious to me that you were working on one of my bins, after doing a compare of a 2 bar to 3 bar program. It was difficult for someone with no programming background to figure out for sure, so that data is valuable to me, in time invested. Do I just hand out my findings for free?? I think it's my prerogative to either hand it out or not

Ask Bruce Plecan for all of his Buick bins, or his rom code in his Buick ecm.
Ask Scot Sealander to give you his hack for his program to write his own VE table in RAM he added.
Ask Garfield for his ION project for detonation detection.
Ask Bob Bailey for his source code in his Ramchargers Buick chips.
Ask Tom Chou for his Thrasher code hacks.
Ask Steve Yaklin for a breakdown of his Max Effort chips for Buicks.
Ask Jay Carter about his anti-theft routine in his Buick chips.
Ask Ed Wright for the anti-tamper routines in his LS1/LT1 programs.

You know what kind of data you'll get from those guys ??? NONE
Do you expect them to just give you a full breakdown of their information?
I suppose they are all arrogant pricks who think you can't duplicate their projects either :-?

Most of those guys wouldn't give a damn about finances either, and most of them have day jobs not in the automotive field.

I don't even have detailed documentation of what I've done in my programs to hand you. I'd have to spend more time typing away explaining what is done, why, and showing you every little last detail. Egads, again, I'm the bad guy here...


I'm still baffled how you expect us to hand over all of this information, like it was created in a group effort, open source code project. I think it's great that you will share yours. I think we have more time invested than you at this point, on an exponential scale probably.

ech, I'm going back to being the chipping bastard who holds back information from everyone in the syty community :fist:

I'm still trying to figure out what I was thinking when I created those simple webpages explaining all sorts of tidbits about the commonly used syty tables & constants. :roll: (this is where i try to quit again, and get sucked in like i'm in the mafia; goddamnit someone shoot me and save me from these retarded situations)

 

[PPI Typhoon]

I don't recall how I ever asked you to HAND over your binaries.

You still say that I've done that.

What you have done, is say on your pages that you can't make a 3-bar out of a 2 bar binary.

"Unless you have started with a 3 bar map sensor chip program, or made the changes in the code yourself, you will not be able to make a 2 bar chip into a 3 bar chip using Promgrammer."

Is that why I'm having problems? Seems to me that this is more of a tactic to keep people from wanting to learn. Actually, it's that phrase RIGHT there that made me curious. That's where it all originally started from.

I don't get it?? You're right, I don't. But I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

DIY_EFI members do have the answers. And that's where I've been getting them. The 3-bar bins that they're using..could they be yours?? Possibly. But nevertheless, that's where I got the answers on code changes and hacked source code.

And what you do doesn't affect me either way. All of this started over a display, and you're turning into the same thing that Todd did. Negative.

Sorry for getting you in such a ruffle, and I've told you that I won't sell anything about a 3-bar setup. I've conceited to that. You should be happy. But you assume a few too many things with me, and blow this all out of proportion.

But again, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

"ech, I'm going back to being the chipping bastard who holds back information from everyone in the syty community"

Life's full of choices. You can choose to embrace other people's willingness to learn, or you can deny it.

I'm still going forward either way. And for the record, I have before, and will still continue to credit you for the 3-bar "creation".

I guess I'm sitting here ultimately wondering (no pun intended) what the hell you want me to say to you for you to be happy?

I've told you already that the LCD may have been done before, but you see that my code is NOT anything but my own doing. And when I burn a 3-bar chip in my truck, it's not anything but my working. You came up with the idea of 3-bar in a SyTy. Great. I'm not denying that. But what I have so far is rescaled tables, practically stock timing, stock injector settings, EGR disabled, and some changes to tolerances for error codes. I get MAP reading errors all the damn time. My idle leaves a lot to be desired, and I wouldn't say my truck is faster (if not slower).

Is that all your 3-bar is?? If it is......I sure as hell wouldn't be making such a stink like you are. For all the time you say you've invested...I'm quite sure yours consists of a hell of a lot more than that. :roll:

So you stay on one side of your room, and I'll stay on mine. Simple.

 

[bdubb]

You don't have to be paranoid, and you'll still make a killing at what you do.

HAHAHA. yeah right, BG makes TONS of money from this, thats why he can quit his job, and just make chips.

 

[PPI Typhoon]

You don't have to be paranoid, and you'll still make a killing at what you do.

HAHAHA. yeah right, BG makes TONS of money from this, thats why he can quit his job, and just make chips.

Well, it's been said before that there are over 200 out there.

After build costs........somewhere around $300 a chip.

Not sure if $60,000 is reported to the IRS, but my assumptions are that it isn't. So that's pocketed money between him and Todd (again, an assumption)

That's better than a kick in the pants. It may not be a "killing", my apologies for the usage of that word. :roll:

 

[bdubb]

ok, and how much does Todd charge BG for the chip box?

You should really get your facts, before you start posting an assumption on somthing you don't know.

saying that BG makes a killing, and coming up with a price you think he should have in his pocket. yeah right.


it's like saying, you work for PPI, and are like 30 years old. you make like 65 grand a year. so under my calculations you have like over $780,000 that you're sitting on.

 

[PPI Typhoon]

ok, and how much does Todd charge BG for the chip box?

You should really get your facts, before you start posting an assumption on somthing you don't know.

saying that BG makes a killing, and coming up with a price you think he should have in his pocket. yeah right.


it's like saying, you work for PPI, and are like 30 years old. you make like 65 grand a year. so under my calculations you have like over $780,000 that you're sitting on.

Hence why I said BETWEEN them.

Ugh. Here we go on another subject that has NOTHING to do with the original subject. :roll:

 

[bdubb]

I'm doing the same thing you're doing.

making claims on how much money, you make and have, yet you get all mad. :roll:

want me to make a new post on it, and we'll have everybody guessing on how much you make, and will be making (no facts thou, just our assumptions).

 

[Daron]

Funny, Brian got me into chipping. He fielded all my dumb questions and was way helpful getting a newbie going. Maybe our different experiences have everything to do with "approach."

 

[ty1548]

I've been trying to deal with this via private messages, but since it's now out in the open...

Dan has from the start been manipulating the facts for his benefit. I never said I had "ownership" of the multi-chip idea. The comparison to the JET chip is ridiculous. My hardware is nothing like theirs (mine's much more advanced), and they never offered anything for Sy/Ty's. What I developed was the first multi-chip for the Syclone/Typhoon. I figured out how to do it, took a large financial chance in marketing it to such a small group, and through hard work it is finally starting to pay off. What is entirely my idea though, is using an electronic display to both display the current program and switch between settings. This is a huge leap over memorizing key positions or numbers. No other chip for syty's or any other vehicle has this option. Someone will surely "borrow" this concept for another vehicle sooner or later. Good luck to them. The 10-1 and Ultimate also have another unique feature, their use as a timing and boost controller.

The Ultimate/10-1 chip hardware is composed of a multi-program capable chip carrier, with a digital display/switch/lock. Anything marketed for the syty with these functions is a copy of our product. The Ultimate software is a 3 bar based calibration that allows for multiple levels of timing and boost control. This was Brian and my original idea, and we were the first to offer it.

The problem is that your plans involve a chip that does exactly the same thing for the same vehicles, that being the Sy/Ty. You haven't come up with any original thoughts. Who the F cares what your PIC code looks like, if the chip looks and functions like an Ultimate or 10-1, it's an Ultimate or 10-1. Thus whomever builds this has ripped-off the design.

Although it's not widely advertised, I do sell just the hardware for DYI'ers. I trust that those who would buy this would not use it to pirate the Ultimate or my 2 bar software. For those that haven't been around long, like Rockville Speed, the LCD has already been done. If this is what you want, I can still make them, but you're downgrading your chip. An LCD in general is not as reliable or visually appealing as the LED for this application. The cost of producing a decent looking enclosure is the road block in making an appealing looking LCD unit. I always wanted to keep the chips reasonably priced and there are just certain things that cannot be done on such a small production scale. Dan claims that we are making a killing selling these at $385, comparing our price to single Buick chip for $50-$75. This is just another ridiculous comparision, do I even need to clarify? Yeah, Kenne Bell's single program chip with it's early 90's technology for $250 is a bargain compared to our 3 bar 16 program unit with the unique electronics.

I initially offered to work with Dan to integrate anything that would improve/benefit the chip and the syty community. His response was "No thanks, I'm going at it alone" stating that this was entirely his idea, screw me if it happens to be just like my existing products. Ok, forget that idea.

Dan, how about focusing your talents on something unique, that we'd all be interested in and is not yet available. How about a heads-up display of MPH/RPM? If it's chipping that you want to concentrate on, find your own niche. How about a MAF based fuel management system? Now that would solve a lot of problems. People would respect you if you could develop that. You claim to have conquered the 3 bar conversion so quickly, certainly you can patch in a MAF function for fuel management. I'm sure you can think of something. You're many many years late in your current endevour. You want to interface your hardware with mine? Don't you think it would have been appropriate to contact me first? Things could have gone so much smoother if you'd acted responsibly and maturely. I've worked with many others on similar projects, all with amicable results. Bill Calcagno disasembles my displays to resinstall into the ashtray. He could have easily copied my circuits and circumvented me to do this. But he went about it the right way for everyone's benefit. He received absolutely no static from me during this project.

Fact is, you'd be hacking 2 bar bins right now, loading them into a PromPaq or single chip carriers if it weren't for my/Brian's/Dig's efforts. It's easy to duplicate something that's already been done. 90% of product development is coming up with a novel, marketable idea. We came up with this one. Intellectual property is valued and protected in this country. I hope that the syty community also respects that.

There are projects that have been on the backburner that I think you'd all be interested in. If this kind of behaviour is tolerated though, few will bother trying to develop and market any new products for this small market.

 

[ty1548]

Dan, why is money such a huge issue with you? It is completely irrelevant to the topic, but you keep bringing it up over and over. I explained in great detail in a private message what little we actually make per unit, only because I was sick of your repeated comments. Is this all it is with you, a money issue? You obviously want to make this as ugly as possible. You're not making any fans here acting this way.

 

[PPI Typhoon]

Because, I felt things to be too expensive. We've gone through this in PM's. And you say you're just starting to make money.

And see, my initial point was not to be making money off of it, but rather pass on something cool for hardly anything above what the cost is above what it would be to make it.

As you've noticed, that's why I hadn't mentioned price about any displays or anything of the sort. But I'll tell you, I'd not make anything. I was planning on basing my initial buy in for parts, manufacturing, minus the programmer, and everything across what....400+ units for a buy in. And offer them for basically what it cost to make. Much like the DIY-WB setups where that's not a profit issue. That's more of an offer to people for options on their vehicles.

I see that as not a money issue other than me thinking that it can be brought to the LIMITED community easier and cheaper.

But hell.........you seem to want to lay claim to all this stuff. Like over on the gauge post...........you came up with the idea of the Typhoon on the logo. You think Speedhut stole that from you? Speedhut's been putting logos on their gauges for a long time. You honestly think that your NON el-glow gauges with a Typhoon logo prompted their whole design structure?? If that was the case........then why did they make us do a buy in to get the first run going?? Why didn't they go with them off the bat if they copied your design?? :roll:

Case in point at how someone can come up with an idea and NOT stealing your..........and I quote you..........."brainchild".

I offered to talk with you over the phone before all this got blown out of proportion Todd, and you chose not to. And as I've told you before, this issue isn't up for discussion any further.

I'm not making friends?? That's perfectly alright. If no one ends up wanting displays?? They're not SyTy specific.

My whole point in all these arguments is that you guys are saying that I'm just over here hacking away at your ideas. And I came up with the LCD deal between Craig, and PICLIST.com

If you say that I'm the one all about money, then why did you confront Craig and tell him you didn't want him selling his adapters to anyone in the SyTy community?? He came up with his adapters without having anything to do with you, but you were right in there trying to keep him out of the SyTy community so that you can lay claim to your "brainchild".

Sounds like I'm not the one worried about money, just that everyone's afraid of a more selection coming out.

And the more of a stink that's made just makes that desire greater.

 

[rockvillespeed]

few responses - partyboy, u r right - this IS the lounge - my apology.
10-1 guys - first, been aroung longer then u think. second, seen the lcd boxes - no flames meant - they were big and clunky, hard to mount nicely.
i am perfectly happy with my led display. i'd like the new style EL LCD panel simply for cosmetics - i already have el head unit, tire psi monitor, and the new gtech. i have shit night vision, so i like the el quite a bit. plus, i think it looks neat.
i am obv. not privy to your all private emails, so i cant quite understand what all the animosity is about - brian and tod are extremely entitled to be making money for their work/products. but, so is anyone else - truthfully, i dont see dan selling many of his own full chips - but bfd if he does. technological evolution is just that - refining a concept or whatever and making "improvements" - as that may be.
i again, do see dan selling plenty of lcd panels - and again, so what.
my excitement and enthusiasm stems mainly form the notion of the aldl dispaly readout combined with the 10-1 ultimate controller - this gives me a major rise in the levis.
from my point of view, i just see any piracy going on - just POTENTIAL market competition.
just my 2 cents worth

 

[rockvillespeed]

shit - sorry
that last line should read: I JUST *DON'T* SEE ANY PIRACY...

 

[BillC]

What you have done, is say on your pages that you can't make a 3-bar out of a 2 bar binary.

"Unless you have started with a 3 bar map sensor chip program, or made the changes in the code yourself, you will not be able to make a 2 bar chip into a 3 bar chip using Promgrammer."

Stop blaming Brian for the inability to convert 2-bar bins to 3-bar with Promgrammer. I am the guy writing Promgrammer, and I am the guy who decides what the program will and won't do. It's that simple.

I could very easily have made Promgrammer capable of doing the conversion. It already incorporates another code hack (the F71_SCALE), and may incorporate others in the future. However, the 3-bar conversion affects many tables (as you've discovered), and I decided it would be safer and less confusing to just require people to start with a 3-bar bin, rather than try to figure out all the tables and parameters that must be tweaked to make a converted 2-bar bin work correctly.

So, I made the decision to leave out the conversion. Brian's comment on his web page simply reflects reality, and only repeats what I've already said in Promgrammer's instructions: the program won't convert a bin from 2-bar to 3-bar or vice-versa, it will only scale the displays appropriately. It's not a case of "can't"; I just didn't think that feature was worth the headaches and hassles it would cause.

 

[E-Rue]

i should have known as many pages as this post was there was some flaming going on!

e

 

[PPI Typhoon]

What you have done, is say on your pages that you can't make a 3-bar out of a 2 bar binary.

"Unless you have started with a 3 bar map sensor chip program, or made the changes in the code yourself, you will not be able to make a 2 bar chip into a 3 bar chip using Promgrammer."

Stop blaming Brian for the inability to convert 2-bar bins to 3-bar with Promgrammer. I am the guy writing Promgrammer, and I am the guy who decides what the program will and won't do. It's that simple.

I could very easily have made Promgrammer capable of doing the conversion. It already incorporates another code hack (the F71_SCALE), and may incorporate others in the future. However, the 3-bar conversion affects many tables (as you've discovered), and I decided it would be safer and less confusing to just require people to start with a 3-bar bin, rather than try to figure out all the tables and parameters that must be tweaked to make a converted 2-bar bin work correctly.

So, I made the decision to leave out the conversion. Brian's comment on his web page simply reflects reality, and only repeats what I've already said in Promgrammer's instructions: the program won't convert a bin from 2-bar to 3-bar or vice-versa, it will only scale the displays appropriately. It's not a case of "can't"; I just didn't think that feature was worth the headaches and hassles it would cause.

Algitht, point conceited, and point taken.

 

[ty1548]

Dan, since you insist on pulling Craig into this to help fight your battles, I need to set the record straight.

Craig contacted *me* last summer, I did not contact him. I never said anything to the effect of not selling his carriers to the syty community, I've told you this 3 times now. You keep spewing out the same old lies over and over. WE agreed that if it appeared that someone would use his carriers to circumvent the purchase of an Ultimate chip, in other words, use our cals without paying for them, he wouldn't sell to that person. Any reasonable person would have agreed to this. You blatently asked him if his carrier would work with your set of 16 3 bar calibrations. Don't tell me that shouldn't have raised a flag. You told him not to worry about it, that this was for your own personal use. Hmmm, doesn't sound that way to me. I never said anything to the effect of me disapproving of him selling to the syty people . Of course I have no problem with a syty owner burning their own cals on Craig's hardware and he knows this. If you had planned on selling (or reselling) his hardware to the syty community, again there would be no problem. But you have stated that you were going to use his hardware in an effort to copy my hardware AND make it completely functional with the current Ultimate software.

This part is important...

This is just like offering Diacom and Datemaster cables without Rinda's or Warren Bowley's permission. The only thing that prevents massive pirating of this software is their cables. If you start offering Ultimate hardware knock-offs, complete with identical display nomenclature, then you've opened the floodgates for people to pass the cal around and get free Ultimate chips. What can't you understand about that? I know you want to do this so that you can get into the game quickly, taking advantantage of the market we've developed. You know that there are many people that have Ultimates that will buy something to make it new and different (even though it isn't really new or different) . You also know that there are many who would like an Ultimate, but haven't bought one yet who would jump at the chance to get one on the cheap. This is what you are counting on.

End of important part.

I'm sick of you distorting the facts to further you argument. Craig has my hardware right now, has had it for months, we are working *together* to develop something for general use for all P4 based vehicles. This would not be happening if we were at odds like you would like people to believe. We've had nothing but cordial conversations. Maybe if you learned some "people" skills you could work with others in the spirit of community. This is how the Ultimate was developed. Seems to work pretty well.

You've got a lot of spare cash lying around if you can stock parts for 400 units. Geez, I can barely afford to do it 10 at a time. At the rate I've sold chips, that about 6-7 years worth of parts.

Since you brought up the gauges, anyone interested can read that post. My points there were quite valid as you saw if you looked at the web site I posted.

To sum up my stance on this, you do not have permission to market a Ultimate chip knock off that can be used to directly interface with the Ultimate software, or my 2 bar software. Does anyone besides Dan have a problem with this??? I'm I out of line here? Democracy rules.