SBC conversion

[Sy#26]

Just blew my third engine.

Can anyone steer me to info on putting a SBC into a Sy? Found some pix of the German twin turbo conversion, not much info.

Really want to keep this truck, but stressing this lil' 4.3 to get good numbers - 11.5@117mph - is getting just too tedious. Need a bigger mill that doesn't need to be thrashed so hard to put out the HP. I plan on starting w/ a 350/400 (?), NA - add supercharger later as funds permit.

Any suggestions *much* appreciated!

 

[MyTyphoon1993]

Dude you better put on a flame suit, cause thats whats gonna be coming to you. A 4.3 can be built up to go 10's, shoot we have gonna 9's now, how much racing are you talking about doing.

 

[Buster]

Dude you better put on a flame suit, cause thats whats gonna be coming to you. A 4.3 can be built up to go 10's, shoot we have gonna 9's now, how much racing are you talking about doing.

You don't know shi*, so put on your flame suit. When you actually own and maintain a 10 second 4.3L let me know. I've been through exactly what barry's going through and sucks.

BTW: If you went to nationals you could have seen for yourself all those 10 second 4.3L's, there was none.

 

[warmpancakes]

I know of several 10 sec 4.3 trucks and they are fine just built right, heck mine had the shit beeat out of it on the dyno (think 40 1/4 passes back to back) and had no problem till we opened the bottle a little farther.

 

[MyTyphoon1993]

Dude you better put on a flame suit, cause thats whats gonna be coming to you. A 4.3 can be built up to go 10's, shoot we have gonna 9's now, how much racing are you talking about doing.

You don't know shi*, so put on your flame suit. When you actually own and maintain a 10 second 4.3L let me know. I've been through exactly what barry's going through and sucks.

BTW: If you went to nationals you could have seen for yourself all those 10 second 4.3L's, there was none.

Look you didnt have to say that, that was not right. Now what I have seen people post here, I can say a few that have gone 10's, and yeah stuff does break after you have pushed it to the limit.

 

[Buster]

Barry, do a search on yahoo using S-10 v8 conversion kits. I did some research on it and it looked really simple, they even sell kits to do this, they have custom oil pan for AWD/4wd for like $250.

 

[Buster]

Dude you better put on a flame suit, cause thats whats gonna be coming to you. A 4.3 can be built up to go 10's, shoot we have gonna 9's now, how much racing are you talking about doing.

You don't know shi*, so put on your flame suit. When you actually own and maintain a 10 second 4.3L let me know. I've been through exactly what barry's going through and sucks.

BTW: If you went to nationals you could have seen for yourself all those 10 second 4.3L's, there was none.

Look you didnt have to say that, that was not right. Now what I have seen people post here, I can say a few that have gone 10's, and yeah stuff does break after you have pushed it to the limit.

Yeah I know, the subjects just a little touchy here at home right now. I'm normally not a dic* on the internet, but I know exactly what Barrys going through, and the last thing he wants to hear is the 4.3's can go tens, they can and they almost always blow up.

 

[Buster]

I know of several 10 sec 4.3 trucks and they are fine just built right, heck mine had the shizzle beeat out of it on the dyno (think 40 1/4 passes back to back) and had no problem till we opened the bottle a little farther.

I'm not going to beat this one to death, but I've been to nationals and they never show up. If 4.3L's could run 10's without blowing up you'd see a few at the national event each year.

Last year - None (closest was me)
year before - 1 (tony)
year before - None (closest was pete)
year before - None
year before - 1 (guy L)

In 5 years we had two 10 second passes.. Not saying your a liar, your a good guy but I just don't believe that 4.3L is a good platform for 10's.

 

[warmpancakes]

so what you are saying is that if it doesnt happen at nationals it doesnt happen?, there are several trucks being built faster right now one has gone 10s for 2 years but hes not a memeber of the board or nationals attender, so his 10sec pass doesnt count.

 

[Buster]

so what you are saying is that if it doesnt happen at nationals it doesnt happen?, there are several trucks being built faster right now one has gone 10s for 2 years but hes not a memeber of the board or nationals attender, so his 10sec pass doesnt count.

Nope they all stay a home and hide 'em. Yes the're are a few 10 second trucks out there and most blow up, its simple. Watch closely you'll see guys hit low 11's and then disappear, ever wonder why?

 

[Buster]

so what you are saying is that if it doesnt happen at nationals it doesnt happen?, there are several trucks being built faster right now one has gone 10s for 2 years but hes not a memeber of the board or nationals attender, so his 10sec pass doesnt count.

Nope they all stay a home and hide 'em. Yes the're are a few 10 second trucks out there and most blow up, its simple. Watch closely you'll see guys hit low 11's and then disappear, ever wonder why?

 

[Sy#26]

SBC conversion

Yo, guys, didn't mean this to become a war. My Sy has been so cobbled up by now, preserving any 'authenticity' is a joke. This is a matter of $$$. Not usually a Nats go-er, so I don't really know (or care) who did what. I'm in this for the sheer FUN (???!!! - huh?) of it!

I like the nice times, don't really care about 10s, low 11s are fine for me.

This is circle-track country, can get some nice built 400s for not many bucks. That, plus a Paxton later, will give me all I want. 10psi in 400 cu.in. will run mid 11s all day and prolly break nothing.

BTW, mis-fired for no more than a quarter second @ 21psi before blowing parts & stuff thru the pan - professionally built ($$$) engine, too. Too bad no datalog of it - would be interesting to see. #6 plug wire de-loomed itself & touched the DP - instant destruction.

It's just getting too expensive & time consuming to maintain this sucker - this IS a daily driver, not a trailer queen.

Thanks, guys, but let's all be NICE to each other - everyone's got a different philosophy, and preserving the "4.3L essence" isn't mine. Any remarks about it being 'disloyal to the genre' will be disregarded.

 

[Tooky]

Barry, what caused your first two motors to fail if I can ask?

I'm not making the power you are but my stock motor has seen hell numerous times and hasn't missed a beat (knock on wood). I'd sound like a damn fool if I listed all my mistakes but I've forgot to turn the alky on and ran 20+ PSI boost on pump gas with 12*+ knock for split seconds, I spiked stock turbo to 27 PSI once when I forgot to reconnect my boost controller, etc. etc. What I'm getting at is I've had dozens of mishaps and it doesnt seem normal for "just one" mishap to instantly destroy the motor.

This is an interesting thread about whether or not the 4.3 is "reliable" into the 10s and I hope it continues.

 

[myclone]

Hate to see ya go V8 but in your situation I kinda dont blame you (just keep the V6 stuff in a box or something :wink: ).

Anyway, to go SBC isnt a big deal at all since small blocks have been swapped into S trucks for over 20 years now. Youre front accessory stuff is a bolt on, engine mounts are available from ~half a dozen companies, and N/A headers are available from 3 or 4 companies (certain stock manifolds will work too). Jegs and Summit Racing both offer books on doing the swap as well as carry the "kits" to make it practically a bolt in deal for both the 2wd and 4wd. Ive performed the SBC into 2wd S truck deal 3 or 4 times myself but those were all NA/carb applications so I dunno if I can offer much help if you go with a turbo app. If you go supercharger your options are many and expense is fairly low in the grand scheme of things IMO.

I can tell you that youre biggest issue (or at least mine) was trying to keep the coolant temps down during the summer. Big radiators helped as well as aux electric fans but it was a PIA due the lack of room or the amp draw. I ran a mechanical (non clutch) fan as there isnt enough room between the rad and water pump for a clutch fan unless you hack the core support and move the rad forward. Keep in mind that my projects were low budget and I used what I could afford or had on hand as Im sure there were ~$700 radiators or ~$300 alternators that would have worked but stuff like that was out of my budget range at the time. One more tid bit is keeping the AC presents more of a challenge in the cooling dept.

If you go 400 then be aware of the fact that you will need the externally balanced flex plate for a 400 as well as its specific harmonic damper. Stock 400s would actually be a pretty good low boost motors IMO due to their stupid low compression and provided you kept the RPMs low as the stock rod bolts are the weak link (they are diff from 350s). IMO if you put good rod bolts and forged pistons in a stock 400 then you have a pretty decent short block that will survive some abuse.

The stock 400 heads are horrible and thats where youre HP and expense will come from IMO. There are numerous fairly cheap heads to choose from just be sure to add the steam holes if they dont have them as 400s have siamesed bores which tend to develope hot spots in the coolant passages around the bores. The steam holes allow those hot spots to get water flow and keep them cool. You said you were in circle track country though so you should be able to find some nice heads that a racer is selling for a few bucks so you might actually make out pretty good here as far as cost.

The down side to 400s IMO is the up front expense for forged pistons.. They are more expensive than youre run of the mill 350 so expect a little sticker shock there. If youre staying with relatively low boost then you might be able to pick up some forged flat tops for only ~$75 more than a 350. Big compression pistons are prolly double that (least last time I checked they were).

On the other hand a 350 will prolly be youre cheapest route when you compare the durability to the up front expense of building one. Ive beaten stock short block 350s to the point of disbelief only to have it come back for more time and time again (Ive blown a few up too :-? ) so you really cant go wrong with a 350.

To sum it up you will prolly be $ ahead by going V8 and there are prolly millions of tried and true methods of putting togeather a budget SBC compared to the V6 but......the cooling issues as well as emissions testing can make a V8 S truck a REAL PIA to own. BTDT several times.

 

[MadPSI]

You're probably not going to get much help here going the NA/SC route. The presence of a turbo under the hood is pretty much compulsary for any positive...or usefull feedback. Either way I think it's not a great idea trtying to build & maintain a sub-11 second daily driver. Bottom line is that it's going to cost $$$$$ to go that fast either way.

I'm doing a TT SBC in my truck and my advice is...

Go buy a daily driver...save your money...then build your truck.

Trust me. You'll be a lot happier with what you end up with than the seemingly half-assed attempt you're apparently making right now.

 

[smeagol]

I think you are insulting Barry by calling his attempts half-assed. Not sure if you've followed any of his journey, but he crosses his T's and dots his I's better than most.

I've considered V8's for my trucks before, all for the same reasons these guys are talking about now. Much cheaper, lots easier to get the hp you want. It's nice to say " my v6 makes 600hp or so ", but it feels a lot better to not be stuck working on the fucker so much too. You can make a forced induction V8 do 600hp without breaking a sweat, using strong parts that are found way cheaper than their v6 equivalents.

So, Barry, I'm really sorry to hear of your problems, but I see where you're coming from.

I'd look into Jags that run ( www.jagsthatrun.com ), and a few other sources for parts. Oil pan and motor mounts will be the two first things to find. Then you'll have to address cooling - I've seen several trucks put the radiator in the bed, which allows for a nice big intercooler up front :wink: If you do turbo, you'll need some custom headers (there's a guy on the board in NJ that can help you get those done if you need), if you do supercharged, you could do some NA type of headers - you shouldn't have a problem finding some SBC headers to fit the syty/S10 platform. I guess it comes down to what hp you'd like to make, then how you'd like to do it. I'm all about turbos, and it still could be done relatively cheap on a V8, if you can fab on your own. Otherwise, a centrifugal charger on a mildly built V8 seems like a good way of doing things. I have pics of a truck that is done on a serious budget. S10 4wd, converted to AWD, with a 383 twin turbo motor, and a 400 tranny. Runs high 10s all day long, and was built cheaper than any Syty I know of, canadian or not If he threw a little more technology and $ at it, he'd do low 10s with the same effort and reliability. I was so serious about doing this, I already had a parts listing for a turbo V8 for my Sy.

Most of these issues are what contributed to me wanting to sell my truck. I was also sick of dealing with ignition issues, the lack of any real support or interest in our motors as well. Know of any good manufacturers that sell a decent crank for a V6? What choices do you have for cylinder heads, or intake manifold? Everything required too much labor it seemed, and didn't yield so much in the way of results. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If i own another syty, or even an S-series build in syty fashion, it will have a turbocharged V8.

 

[Sy#26]

First motor failed due to piston ring lands collapsing - it was a stocker pushed to 20psi. Next motor - professionally built by Ultratech - spun the two four bolt mains. This one - Ultratech again - put parts thru the pan in the center main area - not out & torn down yet, so dunno what.

Seems to me that the combo of bigger inches and moderate boost will give better longevity. You can build a stout SBC for a fraction of a built 4.3. Big boost = cubic dollars no matter how you cut it.

Half-assed? Well, to each his own opinion....we all have 'em.......

No NA or SC advice here? Don't need it here, plenty of forums on that topic. I'be gone thru 8 turbo combos before I found a good one - TE60/stock center/14cm² turbine. Equal number of WGs, fabbed up several poppet & butterfly styles myself. Best of the lot was the 1 3/4" BF WG - needed some tweaking, but I went back to an HKS; was getting burned out on this subject.

GREAT info, myclone - thanks a bunch. 350 now seems the way to go, I'll research that further. Cooling shouldn't be a prob here in MI, and I never use the A/C anyhow, I'll remove it. Bodging up the rad support shouldn't be a prob; I once stuffed a Rajay S/C 302 Ford w/ C4 auto into a Datsun 260Z and had to cut the entire front end off to install the motor & trans. That was a bitchy conversion due to oil pump going external, oil pan fab, etc. Z crossmember wouldn't allow the pan to be deep under the pump, had to move everything. Chev would have been *much* easier. So, I'm not a newbie @ difficult swaps. Been a hell of a long time, though...

Thanks, guys, keep it coming.....

 

[Falco]

This is definately a very interesting subject. I'd have a few questions.

Brian talked about ignition issues. If someone goes this way with a SBC, wouldn't he experience the same ignition issues down the road with a turbo setup? Otherwise if you go LS1, what would you use for engine management?

Brian would you mind to share that build sheet with us? I'd be interested to see it... :wink:

Later,

 

[warmpancakes]

well if you go LS1 let me know we (accel dfi) make a incredialble system for the ls1,

 

[smeagol]

This is definately a very interesting subject. I'd have a few questions.

Brian talked about ignition issues. If someone goes this way with a SBC, wouldn't he experience the same ignition issues down the road with a turbo setup? Otherwise if you go LS1, what would you use for engine management?

Brian would you mind to share that build sheet with us? I'd be interested to see it... :wink:

Later,

Wasn't anything special, to be honest. Offhand, the main features/parts were:
stock displacement 350 v8, factory iron block, 4 bolt mains
steel crank
5.7" rods (Eagle did have a rotating assembly available, and you can find combos like that all over the net)
JE low cr pistons
Edelbrock Aluminum E-tec (Vortec style) cylinder heads, unported, fully assembled (or even cheaper is GM Vortec heads completely assembled)
Comp Cams turbo spec camshafts (they have a turbo line available)
basic hydraulic roller valvetrain, timing chain, wet sump motor
Single plane carb style intake converted for EFI, FAST/DFI whatever
coil on plug ignition, custom headers with single turbo on pass. side

The idea was to have a stout motor, that didn't use anything hard to find or that couldn't be found in Jegs/Summit etc. Those kind of parts usually are too expensive, and cause problems.
Run 15-20psi on the above motor, with a 76-88 series turbo, spin to 6500rpm or so, and make an easy 600-800hp. Yeah you could do that on a V6, but for how long, and how close to the ragged edge do you need to tune to do that?

I tuned a twin turbo Mustang motor that made 1000hp at 20psi. Never had any issues, it made a ton of passes. WIth the right combo, it was SO frickin' easy to tune, and there were no surprises. Custom cam that was well proven, very well designed plumbing. Kinda made me think, when you have to lean on something so hard to produce results, you'll find limiting factors, or the weak link in the chain.