Ty Zero tow rating / I call BS = noob question

[Captain Morgan]

For my own edification, did the Astro/Bravada have the torque split more towards the rear, or were they 50/50?

the transfercase is pretty much identical for all the trucks. There are slight diffences between the Sy and Ty cases, but they all split power the same.

What breaks the transmission? In other words, what part fails fist?

Everything.

Im on my 4th rebuild now over the past 4.5 years. The first time was clutch failure do to overheating, that was back in 2000. The next time was in 2002 after my truck was stolen, the clutches again were slipping, the converter had failed, the pump took a crap and there was a load of other things that were either worn or were contaminated by other things failing. This past May I broke my front planetary gear, input drum and I cracked a few gears associated with those parts. Two weeks ago I had my output shaft fail, which resulted in a cracked forward clutch hub, my rear planetary had bearing failure and another gear in there was also cracked.

Are you breaking transfer cases?

Transfercases in good mechanical condition have lasted into the 9's without problems and could probably take more abuse if needed.

 

[GregS]

Good Lord!

Are you aware of anyone selling cryogenticaly treated components? That treatment worked well for other problem transmissions I have delt with.

On the flip side, I read that sticky thread about swapping in a 400. That seems like a more purposefull approach, one that would allow senseless beating one weekend and sensible towing the next weekend, all with the change of an ECU program. As it is, most of my cars have aftermarket ECUs.

What do you think?

 

[Captain Morgan]

Good Lord!

Are you aware of anyone selling cryogenticaly treated components? That treatment worked well for other problem transmissions I have delt with.

On the flip side, I read that sticky thread about swapping in a 400. That seems like a more purposefull approach, one that would allow senseless beating one weekend and sensible towing the next weekend, all with change of a program.

What do you think?

if you go with a 400, it will be stronger, but if you plan on doing any highway driving........ever....its gonna cost you at the gas pump, not to mention the higher RPMs due to no overdrive will take its toll on engine parts.

cryotreating helps a little, but not enough to make me wanna spend the extra money to do it. There are a lot of weak spots on the 700R4 that there simply arent better parts available to correct.

 

[GregS]

NJTY180: With regards to using a 400, changing the final drive ratios front and rear would help improve gas mileage. Off the top of your head, do you know what other ratios are available or where I can look for that type of information? Thanks for your level headed answers, they are very appreciated.

 

[myclone]

You can put any ratio that is available for S trucks in the front/rear diffs so off the top of my head you can go all the way down to 3.08:1. That would kill the accelleration somewhat so you would prolly want to swap in the deeper 1st gear ratio into the 400. Youre still going to lose the lock up feature with the 400 so gas milage still isnt gonna be great.

Thats a lot of work though and is kinda like buying a 747 to get free peanuts IMO but if youre set on towing with a typhoon then its about your only option unless you enjoy rebuilding the trans every 3 weeks.

FWIW I.. The gear train (aka hard parts) are usually not what fails and it is usually the clutches that fail due to the high torque loads/awd.

FWIW II.. My truck is on its third trans that I know of at 73k miles. I bought the truck with around 67k miles. Do the math...

 

[just a 6]

Dos your Subaru greates 4-500Lbs of torque, the torque/heat from our trucks is the transmission killer.

It is hard to determine attitude over the internet, so I will not say anything negative to this. Subaru's have tranny failures at just 200hp, they don't need any mods to break their boxes. So yes, heat and torque are the enemy of any trans. Thanks for solidifying the heat as a major concern. For the record, I wont say how much power my Scoob makes. :wink:

You are right, it's hard to deturmen attitude over the internet. I had no attitude when i wrote it, just saying that you shoulden't compare apples to oranges if you know what i mean?

On another topic, without any attitude, it seams like you are trying to convert a lot of Sy/Ty owners that it's ok to tow with our trucks if you do a shit load of mods with the tranny?

Most ppl here don't think it's a good idea to tow and keep the same performance that our trucks are made for, but you wont accept that. (no attitude)

If you have lots of money and really want a Typhoon to tow your bikes, buy and install a modded 4L80E tranny. I think they will hold up to the task,

Take care,

 

[SY2932]

"Transmission carnage, BTDT three times so far for me, three times for others... "
Beating a dead horse here but, if you plan to tow AND race a syty the transmission is gonna have to be built like a brick $hithouse... Like most on here, the commericals on TV showing full size trucks racing pulling horse trailers and the like don't impress me much. But being able to accelerate from 0-60 in under 5 seconds... in the rain does 8) .

 

[93ty475]

Good Lord!

Are you aware of anyone selling cryogenticaly treated components? That treatment worked well for other problem transmissions I have delt with.

On the flip side, I read that sticky thread about swapping in a 400. That seems like a more purposefull approach, one that would allow senseless beating one weekend and sensible towing the next weekend, all with the change of an ECU program. As it is, most of my cars have aftermarket ECUs.

What do you think?

greg,

i don't know enough about tranny's to explain why, but some owners have enjoyed tens of thousands of miles of troublefree service out of a stock syty tranny...two of those trucks, i have personally been in(actually, those are the only two sy's i have ever been in)...well one is my very own...my truck has 57,7XX on the clock (i bought it with 572XX) and came with a reciever hitch installed on it and was used to tow a pair of jet ski's or a pair of quads ...the original owner was a 13 year old boy...sounds strange, but his father is worth a couple of hundred million dollars(south texas oil and gas)...dad bought it for him as his first go-kart back when syclones were first introduced to us...he went through 4 motors and never had a peep out of the tranny...talk about the perfect kid to put a syty tranny to the test...i even found several TXDPS speeding tickets in the center console when i first cleaned out my truck...he's in his late twenties now (the son) and came over the other day...he was in a brand new vette, and did about $700.00 worth of 'drifting' type donuts in my front paved trailer yard...then he asked me if i wanted to buy his vette ......though i haven't driven my truck very much and probably never will, the tranny shifts firm and correctly, like a brand new one should...it is the factory original trans...since then, i've semi-built the motor and made enough upgrades to certainly smoke the original tranny...for that i have a john waller, full build tranny, sitting in a rubbermaid crate, right next to the truck...i plan on installing the newly rebuilt one very soon preferrably before i smoke the perfectly good stock tranny...that way, i can have another good spare....i have never done a boost launch on either of my trucks and probably never will...well i tried when i first bought my sy, but the exhaust housing that came with my 20g turbo didn't allow me to get into boost :-? ...alot of people on this site are experts at doing boost launches....like i said, some people get away with this for a very long time...the other truck that got away with this belongs to 'buddy', a sy owner from virginia...he goes by trbosy2051 on here....his truck has about 112,000 miles and has driven all over the united states without any tranny trouble...we got to hang out in san antonio one night about a year ago and he did more than two handfulls of boost launches (10 to 12lbs ones) for myself and my friends...talk about pulling some g's....buddy swears he's never had any tranny problems and that his is stock IIRC...there are more people out there and i can't explain why some people get away with this when other's don't....what i'm getting at is it's up to you to do what you want and how you want to...you probably have a 50-50 chance of getting away with what you want to do so don't worry about it....some people here have real life experience while other will just jump on the syty bangwagon and just go along with everyone else...hell, justa6^^^used to have pics of his truck loaded down with a ton of stuff in it with a caption that read "who says a syclone can't haul anything" or something of the sort....its not there now though but i hope you get the idea and WELCOME to syty.net...get yourself a truck and if you blow your tranny, i'll sell you my perfect 57k spare for cheap...

later,

 

[dgoodhue]

Are those failure modes occuring in syty transmissions? Are you breaking transfer cases?

The problem is the Transmission (700R4/4L60) has a torque rating of 350-360ft-lbs from the factory. SyTy regularly make 400-440ft-lbs stock. A well running truck with an ultimate chip makes 500ft-lbs of torque and having AWD to be able to put that power to the ground in 1st gear puts that much stress on the tranny.

For instance, a mids 80s corvette with a stocker motor that run mid 11's doesn't down 500ft-lbs of torque.

The problem is that most 700R4 rebuilders (and aftermarket) don't know how to deal with this much torque (and don't realize thaqt our truck make that power). You need a really really good builder to build up a tranny for these trucks and their are only few handfuls of these builders. The performance rebuild won't last and lots of time (especially if they use a diifferent core) are weaker than stock. (BTW if you are wonder why GM didn't us ea stronger tranny The SyTy tranny is probably the strongest 700r4/4l60 that gm built from the factory)

The good new is if you a realtively stock truck you should be able atleast build a tranny to hold since truck with 800-900ft-lbs of torque have use a 700r4 with some sucess. The first killer of stock trannies is heat, so that is why I recommended deep pan, cooler and tranny temperature gauge. I have no idea how a hot the tranny will get towing, but I do know with a stock pan and no additional cooler, my truck peg my tranny temperature gauage after doing two brake boosted launches in a row.

The transfer cases generally aren't breaking, some strech the chains, but 9 second Sy are using this TC.

FYI I understand about trying to convince yourself about the practicallity and dual purpose of a SyTy. I bought my Sy to haul bulky items to the Dump. (atleast that is what I convinced the wife ) I probably bring 5 or 6 truck loads a year to the dump. I thought that I would drive it during the winter, but that is a joke. Its off the road every winter and sitting in the garage (I actually did drive it once in the snow, the snow was fresh and the first of the year and they hadn't put any salt down yet, so I took it for spin around the block)

 

[just a 6]

justa6^^^used to have pics of his truck loaded down with a ton of stuff in it with a caption that read "who says a syclone can't haul anything" or something of the sort....

It sad "who sad you can't use the Syclone as a truck" and i had a 2 + 3 seat couch on my bed, drove it for 3-4 miles when i moved. The 2 seater i could lift by my self so it didn't weigh much

When i drove my Sy from Dallas to the east for shipping to Sweden i probably had about close to 1000Lbs on the bed, it was basicly riding on the rear bumpstops.

But here is the keyword.......did it ones and i never got in to boost.........because i know about the tranny's.

I'm also on my third (3) tranny, when i bought my truck (96K) it had a GM reman trans in it from 1998, while i was driving it the over run broke for me, now i have a B.Hartman trans with a big cooler and an extra filter.

113K and 3 tranny's, and my Sy was NOT modded when i bought it 2001, bone stock and same owner for the past 6 years before me. I'm the third owner.

 

[mattw]

I wouldn't hesitate to tow a few bikes with my ty... Just don't beat on it when you have a trailer behind it...

I have towed many times and probably a lot more weight than I should...

0 tranny or engine issues..

I think that if you are sensible about it you will not have issues...

No issues towing renz home ~10 miles on back country roads either...

-Matt

 

[GregS]

Just a 6: Glad to hear we are on the same page. You have one of those no-bull sytles of writing, I just wasn't sure at first.

Servando: Thanks for the lengthy reply! (I'll keep your tranny in mind :wink: )

So basically, while towing the trans should not downshift or upshift at full boost. The trans temp should be monitored and kept in check. In reality, there is no way I'd be launching or running WO with $20,000 worth of bikes flailing around behind the truck anyway.

I read in another thread, the boost control solenoid can be unplugged without the computer throwing a CEL or otherwise changing the tuning parameters. This would allow towing at a lower boost setting. The wastegate actuator rod could also be lengthened a bit to soften the onset of boost. Both of those are quick mods done while hooking up a trailer.

Using a larger turbo, or at least a larger turbine housing, would also raise the boost threshold and keep the truck out of boost while towing at low throttle openings. This mod would pay dividens the following weekend at the track, although I've always hated lag more than I've liked outright power.

Building a stronger trans is another win-win mod for this dual purpose truck.

Just some thoughts. Thanks for the replies!

Anyone selling a SyTy?

 

[TYTILIDIE]

When my tranny blew my wife was driving and she drives like a grandma. When I took it apart I couldnt find anything that looked out of the ordinary. When I explained to a tranny guy that my wife heard a cluck and she had no OD but was able to use 123, he told me to check the forward sprag. Didnt realize at the time that it opened up. Took it apart and about a million pieces just fell to the floor. In a way it sucks that that is what broke but at the same time it was a relief being that I didnt have to tow it. Greg...I share your frustration with not being able to tow, I want nothing more than to tow 2 wave runners 50 miles from here to the lake but, just taking these trannies out and putting them in is a pain in the ass. I would give it some serious realistic thought before you attempt it. The cheapest builder I could find at the time wanted $1,700 to build it and when it comes to these trucks trust me when I tell you...you get what you pay for. I f you do decide to beef your stock trans up I can certainly assist in what to get for it. GOOD LUCK!!!!!


Mike

 

[Wes]

i think it would be alright to tow an open trailer with a bike. Wes a local guy here has towed a big ass boat with a ty and on several occasions has posted the pictures of it. the odds are that your tranny is going to blow up no matter what you do, tow or not.

Over 20k miles on the tranny, been towing for 2 summers now. It has a big B&M cooler, and air bags in the rear.
Tranny temp stays pretty cool. You just have to be careful, you don't want to be holding 15 psi for any length of time.

 

[GregS]

::thumbsup:: If that's not encouraging, I don't know what is. Thanks Wes!

p.s. -Just how much does that boat weigh?

 

[Spinall4]

Honestly, once you buy a Ty I'll doubt you'll acutaly tow with it. You really do have to own one of these to feel how special they are. I though for sure I was gonna daily drive mine, but I just can't seem to do it.

You can buy a beater blazer to tow your bikes with for < the cost of a built trans. The insurance thing is bullshit, if anything putting somthing like a beater 90 blazer on your insurance and listing that as your main car, while having the others as "pleasure" should lower them. I know putting our 89 caviler wagon on our insurance actualy lowered it. Our trucks are pretty heavy, I would say most stoc Ty's are tipping the scales at well over 4000 lbs. Plus add on towing somthing and you're putting more load on the motor, which will make the turbo spool faster. unless your puling on totally flat ground, with no inclines what so ever, I don't see how you could stay out of boost. I mean if you saw a ZR-1 Vette trying to tow a trailer, you would think to your self "what the hell is wrong with that guy?"

 

[TYTILIDIE]

I ve actually seen a mid 90*s vette pulling a boat down to the lake once a few years ago and I thought it was cool until I noticed the trailer was balanced to not put weight on the rear of the vette but everytime that car hit the slightest wave in the road the rear end would start floating up and down, looked like boat itself. BTW I weighed my TY with a 100lb stereo system and my 190 lb fat ass and altogether we weighed 4070 lbs. I expected much more.


Mike

 

[InvisiBill]

Here's some stuff to look at while you think it over...

Stock trans, 122k.
http://syclone.invisibill.net/sprag1.jpg
http://syclone.invisibill.net/sprag2.jpg
http://syclone.invisibill.net/sprag4.jpg
http://syclone.invisibill.net/sprag5.jpg

Improperly rebuilt trans, 150k. Poor lube actually cooked the whole thing. He said he found chunks of the forward sprag in the pan too. Neato.
http://syclone.invisibill.net/carnage/

I paid about $1400 for the second rebuild, from a SyTy-er. That was basically a "stock with problems fixed" rebuild. I never really plan to do much to the Sy, so I told the builder mid 12's at most, as a target for him. I honestly don't think any SyTy-er would build anything less than this. Add in the R&R cost/time, and you're looking at a decent chunk of change for a tranny. I agree that you're probably better off buying a beater towing truck for about that much and just keeping the Ty out of the equation.

As others have said, the trannies really are borderline even in the stock setup. Add towing on top of that, and you're asking for problems. A built trans would be better, but it's still hard to get both performance and utility. Building for one seems to take away from the other.

It's your truck to do with as you please, but we don't like seeing these special trucks hacked up to be a standard S-10 tow vehicle. We've also seen lots of people try all sorts of "really good ideas" and end up with something crappy. I don't claim to know a lot about this area, but I'm sure most people here would hate to see you kill the Ty's performance just to end up with a mediocre tower. Especially when you could've spent half the time and money just for a dedicated tow beater.

 

[charles]

My bike is around 500lbs + U-haul trailer is 550lbs.

The tranny in my Ty has already been re-built(20k miles ago) and a huge front tranny cooler was added in the process.

I have about a 230 mile haul one-way to the bike track and I'm seriously considering using the Ty. This will be my first time going and not something I would do more than a few times per year TOPS.

Towing 1,150lbs tops all highway with no inclines to speak of(Florida) I don't expect I'd have any problems. A 55-60mph cruise towing 1,100lbs won't generate any boost.

Think about it like this....... 4 200lb occupants+some luggage = maybe 850lbs riding IN the truck......... My girlfriend and I together with luggage weigh about 280lbs.

Us + trailer+ bike = 1430lbs
You + 3 of ur big friends alone = 850lbs

So I'd be going about 600lbs over what a slightly loaded Ty would be
:lol: :thumbsup:

Anyone have any thoughts on slapping a pair of these on to help the leafs?

http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?target=eproduct.asp&N=120+4294925130+4294925129+300696

 

[charles]

i think it would be alright to tow an open trailer with a bike. Wes a local guy here has towed a big ass boat with a ty and on several occasions has posted the pictures of it. the odds are that your tranny is going to blow up no matter what you do, tow or not.

Is this Ty dropped at all or stock ride height?