Ignition Timing - Need Help!

[mmp142965]

I have read all the posts about ignition timing and this is what i have come up with.

I found the tan wire and disconected it.
The timing lite has to be retarded 2 degrees for the mark to show up at 0 degrees on the harmonic balancer.

The mark bounces around as the idle changes slightly, and it wont stay at 0 perfectly.

I have recently done a tune up, but left the cap and distributor because they were changed 2 weeks before I bought the truck. The tune up included new plugs,(I left the MSD wires because they looked new), injectors cleaned and balanced, all new engine sensors (MAP, TPS, Temp, Air Charge, and 02)

The truck has a slight backfire at idle that can be heard only if you listen for it. It also seems a little slugish off the line. Both of these did not go away after my tune up, as I thought they would.

There is also an aftermarket adjustable fuel pressure regulator. Should I set this to the correct 42 psi static fuel pressure before I proceed with the timing? I am not sure what it is set at now, i need a gauge for the rail fitting.

I am trying to figure out if the fuel pressure is causeing the idle to change, which is causeing the timing to change, or the retarded timing is causeing the bad idle and the fuel pressure doesnt affect it. I would feel more confident setting the timing if the mark didnt bounce around. Any help would be great...I cant wait to get this thing running perfect!!! Thanks guys.

 

[supersports10]

Re: Ignition Timing - Need Help!

I have read all the posts about ignition timing and this is what i have come up with.

I found the tan wire and disconected it.
The timing lite has to be retarded 2 degrees for the mark to show up at 0 degrees on the harmonic balancer.

The mark bounces around as the idle changes slightly, and it wont stay at 0 perfectly.

I have recently done a tune up, but left the cap and distributor because they were changed 2 weeks before I bought the truck. The tune up included new plugs, I left the MSD wires because they looked new, all new engine sensors (MAP, TPS, Temp, Air Charge, and 02)

The truck has a slight backfire at idle that can be heard only if you listen for it. It also seems a little slugish off the line. Both of these did not go away after my tune up, as I thought they would.

There is also an aftermarket adjustable fuel pressure regulator. Should I set this to the correct 42 psi static fuel pressure before I proceed with the timing? I am not sure what it is set at now, i need a gauge for the rail fitting.

I am trying to figure out if the fuel pressure is causeing the idle to change, which is causeing the timing to change, or the retarded timing is causeing the bad idle and the fuel pressure doesnt affect it. I would feel more confident setting the timing if the mark didnt bounce around. Any help would be great...I cant wait to get this thing running perfect!!! Thanks guys.

ok never assume someone elese changed the cap rotor etc.... get a new one and change it youself, that way you know.

second ive had the msd wires on my ss, and i had less than 100 miles on tham andd i startes to get a missfire, and a backfire. turns out it was the soft crappy msd oversize boots had cracked in less than 100 miles!!!!!! msd boots are JUNK!!

i ended up using the wires with a set of different plug boots.

if my ss will eat these in 100 mi, just think what a sy/ty will do to a set, espically the one next to the downpipe.

SS:tup:

 

[mmp142965]

Re: Ignition Timing - Need Help!

Yea I was thinking about some black beauties and a new cap and rotor. Does anyone make a good aftermarket distributor for this truck or should I just stick with the stock one?

P.S. congrats admin on the new layout...it looks sweet and is much nicer to use.

 

[TYTILIDIE]

Re: Ignition Timing - Need Help!

The stock Dist. is fine. I got mine from NAPA last year and it does me well. As for wires go, I hear the Bl;ack Beauties are nice but I figure, Why wait who knows how long when you can just go to NAPA or Autozone and get some that will do the same thing for $40 and you get them right then and there. I have Autolites on mine. I dont like them cause they are not "MSD", "TAYLOR", or what have you but I do admit that they get the job dont well. I wouldnt waste the money on fancy shmancy wires, especially when youll be replavcing them every 6 months or so. How many miles on the truck? Have you checked VACUUM? Do you ahve DM? Usually when timing mark jumps around (in my experience) there is a vacuum or ignition problem. I would do what Supersports10 says and just replace things so you KNOW its dont and I would thoroghly check your VAC lines and boots. Tears in boots and cracks in lines can hide better than you can look so take your time.

Mike

 

[mmp142965]

Re: Ignition Timing - Need Help!

When i did the tune up i also replaced all the vacuum lines, the entire PCV system, and cleaned the egr ports through the upper manifold. The truck runs a lot better, it just makes sense that the 2 degrees of retard would make the truck act slugish on off the line. I talked to our porsche mecanic and he said that when the timing jumps a little on idle, it means the distributor is right on the threshold of the timing advance, so the centrifical weights are moving ever so slightly. What do you think?

The Cap and rotor are Accel and after being inspected by me, i decided they were ok - same with the MSD wires. They can always be replaced though. I would prefer the GM ac delco stuff over anything, I just thought the ATR wires were better.

 

[TYTILIDIE]

Re: Ignition Timing - Need Help!

How does the DIST look under the cap? Everytime Ive done my timing hte mark never moves erratically no matter where there mark is. Its always still (so to speak). Unless your DIST is in bad shape I think its something else. It shouldnt move like that. A worn motor could cause this also.

Mike

 

[mmp142965]

Re: Ignition Timing - Need Help!

Ohh no...dont say worn motor =(. I didnt really take a good look at it when i did it because 1. its not exactly easy to look at. 2 i didnt really know what to look for. the truck has 93k miles on it but it runs strong. the tack bounces steady on idel in the 600 rpm range, but doenst shake. Off the line leaves something to be desired but once the turbo comes in it is quick. Feels to me more like low 14's then mid 13's though. I have to check the fuel pressure too. What else could it be? The timing lite is a real nice snap-on digital so i doubt its that =P

 

[TYTILIDIE]

Re: Ignition Timing - Need Help!

Digital? Are you backing it down to 0 on the light itself with the buttons? Thats what I do with mine. I would seriously take another look at your VAC lines just incase. Did you check the ones under the throttle body? Turbo? all the wya down to the charcoal canuister? Try spraying carb cleaner lightly around the motor a little bit at a time and listen for RPM changes. Ild say do the bike tube trick but I dont know how to do it.

Mike

 

[mmp142965]

Re: Ignition Timing - Need Help!

If I set the timing lite to 0, the mark doesnt even show up on the pully. I have to back it down to 178 to get it to stay close to 0, but it bounces around to 6-8 degrees advance rather eraticly.

The entire vacuum system was completyly redone and put together again off the diagram on the front bulkhead. (it was really messed up before) I had the throttle body and upper manifold off for some time so It wwent back together real nice.

With that being said, theres always room for error so I will re check everything. The only reason I dont think it is vacuum is because it ran just like this on idle before I did the tune up (and I completely replaced all the vacuum lines). Could it be the idle control valve? A friend said maybe the distributor is worn out.

Thanks again for the help!

 

[leroy]

Re: Ignition Timing - Need Help!

I really think it's an ignition problem. Timing should stay steady with the tan wire disconnected.....distributor cap, rotor, wires or plug problem. The ignition module and pickup coil also may affect it.

For fun try timing it with the light hooked to #4. That may narrow down if it's a wire or plug problem.

Worn timing chaing, timing gears, or distributor gear chould cause a similar problem.

HTH,
Jim

 

[mmp142965]

Re: Ignition Timing - Need Help!

Ohh cool...this is getting involved...=P So lets say I get a new cap, rotor, wires and plugs. If that doesnt fix it I can try the pick up coil (which doesnt look to be in great shape) or the control module? If non of that works I can change the timing change and distributor gear? =( =(

 

[TYTILIDIE]

Re: Ignition Timing - Need Help!

I would just get a new DIST. They are only like a $100. I would save the chain as a LAST resort. I agree with Leroy, I think you have ignition issues. Stilkl wouldnt overlook that VAC though.

Mike

 

[mmp142965]

Re: Ignition Timing - Need Help!

Can anyone provide the part number for the distributor? Maybe I can get it from gmpartsonline.? I will check the vac lines and the fuel pressure adn post an update. Meanwhile I have about 50 more pics to upload on my website. Thanks for the help guys! I cant wait to get this thing set up.

On a side note...I have never driven in an syty other than mine. How responsive is it supposed to be from a dead stop to WOT. If I floor mine off the line it makes a low bog/hesitation noise and takes about 2-3 seconds (at least half way through the intersection) for the turbo to come on. Is this normal? Everything is stock with an ATR exaust an Kenne Belle Intake. Could the cat be clogged?

 

[DanGTO]

Re: Ignition Timing - Need Help!

Can anyone provide the part number for the distributor? Maybe I can get it from gmpartsonline.? I will check the vac lines and the fuel pressure adn post an update. Meanwhile I have about 50 more pics to upload on my website. Thanks for the help guys! I cant wait to get this thing set up.

On a side note...I have never driven in an syty other than mine. How responsive is it supposed to be from a dead stop to WOT. If I floor mine off the line it makes a low bog/hesitation noise and takes about 2-3 seconds (at least half way through the intersection) for the turbo to come on. Is this normal? Everything is stock with an ATR exaust an Kenne Belle Intake. Could the cat be clogged?

Chris, you are in luck..maybe.

I just picked up the GM factory supplement for the typhoon/syclone from a guy i know because the dealer he works at changed owners so i got the syty book.

I'll look this weekend if i can.

PS, yes it is weird talking to you on another forum. There is another volvo guy on here as well..

 

[TYTILIDIE]

Re: Ignition Timing - Need Help!

For the DIST just get it from the parts store. Why bother with GMpartsonline and have to wait for it when you can just go down and pick it up. When you are WOT from a stop are we talkin boost launch or just steppin on the gas when the light turns green? There is a HUUUUge difference.

Mike

 

[SeattleSy#1255]

Re: Ignition Timing - Need Help!

i wouldn't get a new dissy just yet...here are a few basics

get the standard know products that work on our trucks including plugs:

ngk ur5's
taylor wires or msd's are fine
conrad cap/rotor

if you want to make it easy www.detroitturbo.com has a tune up kit with all the correct parts.

secondly, knowone seems to mention that there is 2 different timing marks on the HB. You want to use the one furthest to your left if you are standing in front of the truck looking down. I would recommend putting a white paint mark on it to see it better for future troubles.

If nothing seems to work, crank the motor over manually by simply removing the upper fan shroud and turning it with a 1 inch socket on the alt. Remove plug #1 and put your finger in the hole while doing this and feel for compression, then bring you painted mark to zero on the timing indicator...you've got TDC. Your rotor should be somewhere between #1 and #6 plug tower if looking at it with cap off...fire it up with tan wire unplugged and turn dissy slightly to get zero exactly if you aren't there already...tighten bolt/clamp and your golden.

 

[mmp142965]

Re: Ignition Timing - Need Help!

Hey sorry about dissapearing...from my own thread...I stopped seeing it on new posts so i didnt check it. i figured u guys just left me up to my own devices...haha.

Dan...Thats awesome that you got that book...i can talk to u on im or if you get the number this weekend you can post it...that would be awesome.

When I get a chance, I am going to do all the tests you guys pointed out in the post and ill see what the results are. I also bought a fuel pressure gauge so i will set that to factory specs.

I will paint the mark white, and see if that helps. Maybe I am looking at both marks????

Thanks again!!!!

 

[mmp142965]

Re: Ignition Timing - Need Help!

When you are WOT from a stop are we talkin boost launch or just steppin on the gas when the light turns green? There is a HUUUUge difference.

just stepping on the gas. the boost launch is not that impressive either and im comparing it to my volvo. but...ithe truck just starts to move no matter how hard i press on the brake, even at 1 psi...its crazy. i would think that just steppin on the gas should be more responsive then it is; my best guess at the timing (even though it was moving around on the mark)was 2 degrees retard which might explain that.

 

[TYTILIDIE]

Re: Ignition Timing - Need Help!

Still 2* wont make it bounce around. The 2 balancer marks are not close enough together 2 see both at the same time. However those marks can be confusing but I would say that the marks are not the problem cause if you were seeing the 2nd mark I doubt it would run at all. As for your boost launch goes, Check all your brakes. On my truck I ended up having to adjust the rears with a screw driver to get it to hold boost. Also, are you doing the neutral trick? Some trucks dont have to , like mine, but htere was a time when I did and I think most trucks do. Ive raced an C80 turbo( I think thats the right model, the 2 door with turbo) and it didnt launch anywhere near what a SYTY can do.

Mike

 

[mmp142965]

Re: Ignition Timing - Need Help!

hmmm. well, i was hoping the typhoon would launch a lot crazier. your thinking of a c70, but thats front wheel drive so not such a great launch. mine is rear, and not really stock, but the typhoon should still blow it away. i cant really build up boost when the truck is rolling into the intersection because the brakes cant hold though. heh. ill see what i can figure out with the timing and take it from there. at least the weekend is here.