thinking about goin odd fire

[rarebit]

i stopped down at the machine shop today to look a my engine parts. they had a odd fire crank, 3 5/8 stroke sitting around so i layed it into my block. after seeing how much stronger it looks then the stock gm crank, im kinda thinking this is the way to go. i already have the speedpro efi. what im wondering is if i need any additional stuff to get the speedpro working with oddfire. i already know i need a distributor, cam, rods, and pistons. im just wondering if there's anything critical im overlooking.
so here are my questions for the odd fire gurus- do i need any other ignition controls, sensors, or harnesses? does the speedpro firmware need updating for oddfire? will the stock balancer work? will the same even fire stokes grind specs work for an odd fire cam or should i go with something with a little more lope?

thanks for the help.

 

[ghettosled]

well you need another ~$1200 in options for the speedpro to work with oddfire. The simple batch fire doesnt work. You will need a modified distributor with cam sensor, a msd crank trigger, new interface harness, sbc rods, oddfire cam, oddfire ignition box, different ignition rotor, and 2 piece rear main seal.

think thats mostly it. Let me know if you dont want the oddifre crank. I might be interested in keeping it as a spare.

 

[rarebit]

can i run fixed timing til i can afford the speedpro mods? id like to get the engine build out of the way first. also, will the msd spark plug wire sync kit work instead of the cam sync pick up? i can also run without an oddfire ignition box, right? use the stock coil by itself then maybe later do the upgrade? can my existing speedpro harness be modified by adding the additonal wires for the cam sensor? if not, do you know where i can get the correct harness? also, what crank trigger are you using? mike...i know that's a lot of questions but i sure do appreciate all the help you can provide me with. i want to go odd fire. i cant afford to keep rebuilding my engine every year.

odd fire v6-
http://home.off-road.com/~merls_garage/oddfire.html

 

[smeagol]

i cant afford to keep rebuilding my engine every year.

While I'll agree that oddfire is stronger, it is a royal PITA.

I still say something is going wrong in your buildups or tuning, as you are the HUGE minority. Every person I know of pushing their trucks to the 10 second level on the stock block & crank has either

A- succeeded
B- had other issues (money, head gaskets, driveline)

No one is destroying cranks by the dozen, in fact I don't know of anyone having crank problems period. Unless you are at the 8000rpm, >750hp level... it is of my opinion, you or your builder is doing something wrong.

Anyways, if you are dead set on a stronger crank, I'd spend the money on an aftermarket even fire, as even fire will help you keep your sanity. Last I heard, McCoy had a line on getting steel evenfire cranks for ~$2000, so you may want to give him a call, and see what the time frame is on that.

 

[ghettosled]

Yeh.. I like what BG said.

Its hard enough getting everything to run properly with oddfire when you buy all the right parts, and in order to "try" other things you really have to understand why it should work.

My oddfire setup seemed to be pretty straight forward once we figured out what the computer is set up to do. The only time i had trouble getting is started was when i had a weak crank trigger signal.

Hoover/Strokes used to run DFI V6 boxes with the timing locked out. Makes it difficult to start.

 

[Lynn D. Brown]

Oddfire vs Even - Trade ?

Oddfire vs Even - Trade ?

At the advice of our gurus BG and Mike L, I guess I will go the other way - from Odd to Even. The only reason I even thought about going (vs being)Odd was that I have a new, forged Oddfire crank. But I want ONLY a measly 500-600 HP, and want a Street/Strip rod that has a chance of passing Smog. The Odd setup appears to be Race only.

So unless I can get lucky and find someone to trade me an Even forged crank for my new Odd crank (Anybody ?), I will be looking at making a custom, forged Even crank. I understand that there might be a big delay in MFG of those, so Do U guys think I could consider strengthening a stock crank ? I do have a new 4 bolt Bowtie block from GM, so maybe that crank would live w those nice Surroundings ? Then I could also go w a much preferred 1-Piece rear seal.

If I do build a forged crank, might as well go for some more Stroke while I'm at it, huh ? What would be the Max Rec'd ? about 3.75" ? I understand 4.0" is the MAX, but I do want to do alot of clearancing.

 

[smeagol]

I wouldn't consider Bowtie blocks, steel cranks until you were shooting for 6000RPM and 700hp.

Rpm kills, so does detonation.

Spin to 5500rpm, with excellent airflow, keep things basic. Many trucks have made excellent power on the stock crank & block to 600-700hp. McCoy has flogged several motors in this configuration, with no breakage. Tony from Canada has the same bottom end. Peter's was this setup. My old truck had 2 bolt mains and made good power. Jeff Dennis just ran like 6 passes in a row at 10.6-10.9 in a full weight Syclone with stock block and crank. I think we have 10-20 trucks that are built using the stock block & crank, Vortec heads, mild cam, decent sized turbos running mild boost levels, and are having awesome results. I'm not saying no other combination can work, but if you aren't someone interested in experimenting... you won't have to really.

I think we've proven that with a good combination and good tuning, the stock block and crank will live at that level. I think if you are worried about making a mistake and breaking the stock block and crank in such a buildup, you'd have the "skills" to break a Bowtie block & steel crank as well

 

[KGB Pilot125]

got one of these if this is waht mike was talking about

MSD-8610 summit P/N make me an offer if it helps you get to your goals

 

[rarebit]

let me just say again- i really appreciate the advice you guys have to offer. i dont want to make the wrong decision. from what ive seen in the past if i continue this route its gonna cost me a new crank every year. i would not be considering going odd fire if i could figure out why i keep breaking cranks.

now if its the build up im getting wrong, i dont really know enough about doing a build up to know what to look for. for that reason, ive gone with a reputable engine builder with a good track record. he's even built a few odd fire v6's. one making 500hp on carb and another making 1000+ hp with splayed heads, custom efi, and a single 108mm turbo. he even made the camshaft for it right in his shop on some exotic italian camshaft grinding machine. right now, this guy is heavly swaying my decisions on what to do and what he's recomending is to go odd fire...

if i am to suspect him of doing something wrong with the build up, what could it be? the two cranks i have broken have broke in exactly the same spot- right between the #3 journal and the main (this last crank with mikes t72 turbo @20-25psi, 5400rpm, 20 deg timing, and 0 knock) that leads me to believe that either the crank is really weak in that spot, the main caps arent holding, some sort of vibration is stressing the crank and killing it, or something im over looking is the culprit. from what you guys have said, i can deduce that a plain stock crank should be strong enough to hold and the studded main caps i have are strong enough. judging from the amount and reputation of the engines this guy has built, im fairly certain he's doing the build up correctly but i cant be 100% certain- i dont know enough about it to know what to look for. any suggestions?

the other possibility brian suggested is that something could be wrong with the tuning. i am not getting any knock and i have verified that the knock sensor is operational so it probably not an issue having to do with detonation. especially since the rods and pistons look perfectly fine. could it be a timing issue? maybe i have too much timing or too little timing in certain parts that are causing some sort of vibration that's killing it? is it possible to run too much advance and not get any knock? the very first crank i broke i was running with the stock ecm with an atr pit bull chip, and te45. that should tell you about the timing and tuning that went along with the first crank that broke.

another possibilty is that maybe i just drive the truck too dang hard...maybe im the problem. thanks for all the help doods.

 

[Lynn D. Brown]

Stock Crank

Stock Crank

Anyone know if stock cranks R available from GM or GM Perfomance Parts ?

 

[ghettosled]

rarebit,

It seems like some part of your combination is not working right. If I were you I would start with a different block, and a different crank. Have the stock crank and block magnufluxed and pressure tested. Then send the crank out to be nitrided. Make sure everything is balanced as an assembly, and I would also recommend putting on a good dampner. It could be possible your engine builder used a nuetrally balanced crank but mistook it for a earlier crank that requires external balance? Maybe try the 4 bolt splayed caps with arp studs.

If you are interested in going oddfire, let me know b/c I have some good parts lying around.

I would also be interested in learning about the splayed valve engine and what efi he is running.

 

[rarebit]

i'll try to score a new block. will the vin w work? i saw one laying around my friends shop in the back. i know the vin w crank wont work. he does balance the entire assembly. yeah, im still interested in doing the odd fire. ill give you a buzz. the machine shop is called kells automotive (702) 384-3756. the guy who runs the place is terry kell. the machinest working on my engine is mark. they both built the splayed valve engine. the fuel injection system they run is custom piece that they make themselves(!) its cheaper and more powerful then speedpro...like complete fuel and timing maps for each cylinder (its not easy to hook up and they dont really offer tech support) they also made the sheet metal efi intake.

check out the intake in the second picture that kells made. hydrogen fuel injectors that's also there dyno-
http://www.me.unlv.edu/research/energy.htm

 

[UNIsackV6]

Hi Lynn,

Sorry to hear about your engine woes. I would definitely agree with what I being said here, it seems like you have a problem with the builder, tuning, or whatever but it isn't a problem anyone else is having. It sounds like you have a new builder who is very knowledgeable which is good start. Sitting here reading your posts I can remember when I was flip flopping on staying even fire or going oddfire and I can offer you some advice. Remember these 3 things.

1) Oddfire can be a pain and requires more knowledge and patience.
2) It will be more expensive and time consuming but it will be stronger.
3) Things can get out of hand (read $$$) real quick you'd be surprised.

If I were you and lived in California Mike Lee would become my new best friend. Why? Because I said so 0X Just kidding....he knows this stuff and has first hand knowledge of what it takes to build, run, tune, drive, and race with the Oddfire set up and you're in the same state!!! Mike has been a big help to me along my long and winding journey. I'd also like to mention that I would be very leery of a EFI system that nobody else knows about, it could be the best system out there but Speedpro is a known and proven entity with our trucks...we can help you out with starter programs, help you pick cam/heads/turbo combos that we know work and you can get it all directly from Mike right in your own backyard. Keep in mind that you will need individual cylinder control in order for the Oddfire Speedpro program to work trust me I know, we can give you the exact name of the PROM you need. Now lets touch on the flip side, even fire.

If you really only want 500-600HP the much easier and simple way to happiness is stock block/stock crank build up BG is mentioning above. It is a proven combo that has been working for years and will put you in the 10's. If you are someone who wants brute strength and a lot of upside potential for future upgrades like ported 18 degree heads with sheetmetal intakes and custom headers your short block will be up to the task no problem, do it the other way around and your shortblock may or may not last very long. Also keep the drivetrain in mind if you go all out you will start to eat 700's like breath mints. My point? Be honest with yourself and make up as many goals as you can before you start, if you do this you will be able to make up your own mind to be odd or not to be odd. Just be ready to be patient if you go oddfire. I can't tell you how much fun even 10PSI at 6500RPMS is, its ludicrisp :wink: hit 15PSI the other day and the AWD can't even keep the damn thing straight so be mindful of what you get yourself into.

Ryan
'92 TY
Oddlyfired Oddlydriven
11.60 @ 123 w/2.1 60'

 

[Lynn D. Brown]

Crank & Rods - Odd vs Even

Crank & Rods - Odd vs Even

Thanx for all the help, Ryan, Brian and guys.

I have decide to go Evenfire w a new Stock crank from Dal. I just can't wait 6 mos for a crank. So now the question is - which Forged Rods ? From all the guys that I have heard that have thrown the stock rods - including me - Is it fair to say that the stock forged rods appear to be significantly weaker than aftermarket ones ?

Assuming that, then whose do we get and how much will they be ? They seem to be a custom item since they have the larger split journal (2.25" vs 2.10" for SBC's), and the width is more narrow. Summit and Jegs can't get them, so I guess they will have to be made. An dhtat appears to coat ~ $1100-1200. The pistons appear to be basically SBC.

 

[ghettosled]

Lynn.

Try looking through the archives or visit one of the vendors sites who's built these motors. Pick a package that has worked and let the vendor try to steer you in the right direction. You told me what you were trying to accomplish awhile back, and i told you what I recommended.

Seeing the word oddfire and stock rods on the same page, just scares me.

 

[UNIsackV6]

Lynn.

Try looking through the archives or visit one of the vendors sites who's built these motors. Pick a package that has worked and let the vendor try to steer you in the right direction. You told me what you were trying to accomplish awhile back, and i told you what I recommended.

Seeing the word oddfire and stock rods on the same page, just scares me.

Stock rods and oddifre together makes me laugh actually :turn-l: Well now that you know you're staying even Mike's advice is dead on, the stock rods and pistons aren't meant to make 500-600HP reliably. There are a number of aftermarket companies that make super strong rods, at some point it becomes preference, one builder will say I only use Carrillo or Oliver etc...but for $800-$900 you can get a very strong set of Oliver or Carillo rods. Same for the pistons, for $400 you can get a custom set of top of the line JE or Diamond pistons. As long as you prep the block and crank and everything is properly balanced you should be fine, just don't skimp on rods or pistons or you will be very unhappy in the long run. The rest is preference really, you can get a nice set of Brodix or Vortec heads and just run ATR or KB headers with a stock intake. Run a nice T70 turbo with an AR Autosports a/a IC and you should be very happy. Good luck and keep us posted. :drinking:

Ryan
'92 Ty
11.60 @ 123

 

[rarebit]

actually, stock rods wont work with oddfire cause the journals are bigger like 350 journals. stock 350 rods would work.

thanks for the odd fire advice everybody. looks like im gonna stay away from it for now...until i can afford it at least. im gonna rebuild with a new crank, fluid balancer, and a different used block. if that dont fix the crank breaking problem im going odd fire (and you wont be able to talk me out of it)

 

[ghettosled]

sometimes I wonder why I spend the time trying to educate people, only to see them second guess me and come on this board to ask the same questions as if I didn't know anything.

Obvioulsy I know that stock rods wont fit on an oddfire crank, and obviously an aftermarket rod is going to be better then the factory rods.. Do we really need to start a survey and get everyones opinion? Read the FAQ, look through supported vendors sites and see what the trendy recepe is, and make an educated decision. If you aren't familiar with what it all takes you are best to let someone expirienced hold your hand. If you don't it will only cost you more in the long run.

 

[rarebit]

mike, i already knew that you knew that the stock rods wouldnt work with odd fire. that statement wasnt intended for you.