I need help with my misfire/stumble...

TechWeasel

New member
Ok, I got everything back the way it should be today - lash set properly, put it all back together, and of course, it still feels like it's not running on all six, and has the surge at 2200-2500 rpm at part throttle, just like before.

I'm out of ideas on this. It really, really feels like one cylinder isn't hitting... But everything I check says all 6 are firing. I don't know what to do next, and I'm becoming somewhat depressed.
 

sy1907

SYCOTIC
Hey, I'm the guy with the same problem from the pm. Is it totally out of the qeustion that the fuel pump, fpr, rail, or filter could be causing the engine to be shorted gas therefore making it stumble at higher rpm's and surge at low? If yours is like mine, you can pretty much shake a can of pop out of the cup holder. I've been giving it a lot of thought, just a guess, because I am fairly new to the sy world. Lemme know what ya think.
 

TechWeasel

New member
I don't know, Dan. For sure, I have a problem with the fuel pump, because the system won't hold pressure once it's turned off... I know this from both my mechanical test gauge and my in-cab electronic analog gauge. I also get a pretty good pulsing from 36-42psi on the mechanical gauge at idle with the vac hose disconnected and plugged, and sometimes I can see it on the electronic gauge too (like during coast-down when vac is highest).

The thing is, I can't understand how a fuel problem could cause something that feels exactly like dropping a cylinder, unless it was a single bad injector. And the injectors are a matched, brand new set from RC - I actually watched the guy flow-test them. Pulsations in the line pressure might explain the part-throttle stumble/surge though...

I'm so tired of messing with this. Is it too much to ask for what is an essentially brand-new engine to run right? I don't want to keep replacing things, hoping to finally find whatever bizarre combination of factors is making the truck run so badly. None of the diagnostics I've done so far have been the least bit helpful. :(
 

Hu Ryde

Donating Member
Double check all electrical connections, injectors, mapsensor. What about some DM's of the stumble. Or a cold start to warm running record. This all can show/give a better picture of what's going on.
 

Tydriver

TurboLS6 Powa'
To confirm or deny your assumptions about a dead cylinder assume the position and demeanor of PLASTI-MAN and try the following:

  1. Reach around backside of intake manifold with truck running and pull off a plug wire (off the distributor) one at a time (with truck idling) when you pull off a wire it should idle MUCH WORSE, probably even die, if it doesnt then you have no spark to that cylinder, it MAY help to have someone put a small load on the engine(truck in gear, foot on brake), sometimes idling isnt enough. <WARNING, make sure you do this with a pair of pliers or gloves or something to insulate your hand from the 30,000+ volts at cap>

    Also, on same note.. Have you taken off the cap and rotor and inspected everything ? At the nats this year Ryan R's ODDFIRE engine wouldnt start at track, we traced it down to the fact that the rotor had come loose and attacked the inside of the cap, breaking off parts and pieces. (not saying you screwed up, but we all make mistakes)

    Another option <truck OFF> to make sure there is spark at every cylinder is to take a plug wire OFF at the plug end (secured at distributor end) place a phillips screwdriver up the boot (where plug gets inserted) and then holding the insulated handle hold it a small distance away from a header,exhaust manfold, block etc, something grounded then turn truck over (have an assistant handy) and watch for a small blue spark. NO SPARK = PROBLEM you may have to crank engine over a couple times to see it, but it should be apparent EVEN in daylight. This will allow you to somewhat check the condition of your wires too. YES its possible to get a bum wire in a brand new set, but this will atleast allow you to "SEE" if there is sufficient spark. More than likely you will be holding end of screwdriver far enough away that if it lights in ambient air, it should light the plugs in the cylinder.
  2. If the previous step doesnt really show any results then one by one see if you can remove an injector harness wire from an injector, once again an assistant and a small load should really illuminate this problem. If you pull the plug, essentially disabling the injector then it should run noticeable WORSE. No change = dead injector.


    And if you are comletely LAZY (like me ;))and LOADED with CASH (definitely NOT like me :( ) you can do the following:
  3. There are Infrared thermometers out there that will read well up into engine temps (exhaust temps more appropriately).. Alot of racing teams have them, you simply shoot at the exhaust header/manifold near the head and watch for some desparity in temps... Obviously a dead cylinder WONT be generating as much heat as the other running ones nearest it.. It should be a noticeable difference.
As far as the fluctuating FP, did U remove the part just upstream of the fuel pump in the sending unit ? I believe its called a pulsator ?????? Just about everyone I have talked to STRONGLY suggests its removal. Apparently these are known for leakage etc. If the pump is keeping up at running speeds it should NOT be an issue (meaning where you are having this issue).

However stranger things HAVE happened. If the pulsator is still there I would suggest removal. If not, then look for some reason why its varying soo much. Leak down should occur (fuel pressure) when truck is switched OFF but it shouldnt be instantaneous when pump is powered off..

Man I hope I havent confused you or made any of this worse.. Hoping it wont be much longer for me to have my truck running and I am dreading these problems if they appear..

Once again, I hope some of this made sense and helped remotely.
Good luck, lemme know if I can clarify any of it.
 

TechWeasel

New member
Hu Ryde said:
Double check all electrical connections, injectors, mapsensor. What about some DM's of the stumble. Or a cold start to warm running record. This all can show/give a better picture of what's going on.

Well, I've replaced the coil, cap (twice), rotor (twice), and plug wires, checked to make sure the injector connectors were all on properly. About the only thing on your list I haven't done is replace the MAP sensor, but it doesn't look like it's doing anything untoward when I watch it with DM.

I have one DM file of the rough idle, with some runs in neutral up into the "shake zone" at 2500 rpm. Tomorrow I'll do a cold-to-warm with a little trip around the neighborhood, so I can send it off to anyone who wants to take a crack at this.
 

Tydriver

TurboLS6 Powa'
TechWeasel said:
Tomorrow I'll do a cold-to-warm with a little trip around the neighborhood, so I can send it off to anyone who wants to take a crack at this.


GIMME GIMME !! Email to addy below.. I'll see what I cant see ! ;)
 

TechWeasel

New member
Tydriver said:
To confirm or deny your assumptions about a dead cylinder assume the position and demeanor of PLASTI-MAN and try the following:

  1. Reach around backside of intake manifold with truck running and pull off a plug wire (off the distributor) one at a time (with truck idling) when you pull off a wire it should idle MUCH WORSE, probably even die, if it doesnt then you have no spark to that cylinder, it MAY help to have someone put a small load on the engine(truck in gear, foot on brake), sometimes idling isnt enough. <WARNING, make sure you do this with a pair of pliers or gloves or something to insulate your hand from the 30,000+ volts at cap>

    Also, on same note.. Have you taken off the cap and rotor and inspected everything ? At the nats this year Ryan R's ODDFIRE engine wouldnt start at track, we traced it down to the fact that the rotor had come loose and attacked the inside of the cap, breaking off parts and pieces. (not saying you screwed up, but we all make mistakes)

    Another option <truck OFF> to make sure there is spark at every cylinder is to take a plug wire OFF at the plug end (secured at distributor end) place a phillips screwdriver up the boot (where plug gets inserted) and then holding the insulated handle hold it a small distance away from a header,exhaust manfold, block etc, something grounded then turn truck over (have an assistant handy) and watch for a small blue spark. NO SPARK = PROBLEM you may have to crank engine over a couple times to see it, but it should be apparent EVEN in daylight. This will allow you to somewhat check the condition of your wires too. YES its possible to get a bum wire in a brand new set, but this will atleast allow you to "SEE" if there is sufficient spark. More than likely you will be holding end of screwdriver far enough away that if it lights in ambient air, it should light the plugs in the cylinder.
  2. If the previous step doesnt really show any results then one by one see if you can remove an injector harness wire from an injector, once again an assistant and a small load should really illuminate this problem. If you pull the plug, essentially disabling the injector then it should run noticeable WORSE. No change = dead injector.


    And if you are comletely LAZY (like me ;))and LOADED with CASH (definitely NOT like me :( ) you can do the following:
  3. There are Infrared thermometers out there that will read well up into engine temps (exhaust temps more appropriately).. Alot of racing teams have them, you simply shoot at the exhaust header/manifold near the head and watch for some desparity in temps... Obviously a dead cylinder WONT be generating as much heat as the other running ones nearest it.. It should be a noticeable difference.
As far as the fluctuating FP, did U remove the part just upstream of the fuel pump in the sending unit ? I believe its called a pulsator ?????? Just about everyone I have talked to STRONGLY suggests its removal. Apparently these are known for leakage etc. If the pump is keeping up at running speeds it should NOT be an issue (meaning where you are having this issue).

However stranger things HAVE happened. If the pulsator is still there I would suggest removal. If not, then look for some reason why its varying soo much. Leak down should occur (fuel pressure) when truck is switched OFF but it shouldnt be instantaneous when pump is powered off..

Man I hope I havent confused you or made any of this worse.. Hoping it wont be much longer for me to have my truck running and I am dreading these problems if they appear..

Once again, I hope some of this made sense and helped remotely.
Good luck, lemme know if I can clarify any of it.

See, the odd thing is that when I do a power balance test by pulling the IAC connector and disconnecting the plug wires one by one, it's not noticeably better or worse for any particular cylinder.... Of course, that's just listening to it, since I don't have a helper to watch the tach. I might do it again with the DM hooked up to record it and see if that tells me anything.

I'd do a power balance with the injectors too, if it wasn't impossible to reach the #2 and #4 connectors with the intercooler in place...

In any case, every time I pull the plugs and look at them, they all look the same - a little tan around the insulator, none of them wet, dark, light, or whatever. That's one reason why I thought it might be a valve lash problem.

And it just so happens I have an infrared thermometer. I tried using it to check the temperatures on the manifold near the ports, but I can't get a clear shot at #4 and #6... Maybe if I combined all three methods, I can work out which cylinder is having problems.
 

Hu Ryde

Donating Member
Could it be that the cam is installed a tooth off or anything of that sort? Timing chain off by a tooth? I have never installed a cam or anything but it poped into my head after reading:

See, the odd thing is that when I do a power balance test by pulling the IAC connector and disconnecting the plug wires one by one, it's not noticeably better or worse for any particular cylinder.
 

TechWeasel

New member
Hu Ryde said:
I'll look at it, e-mail it to me. Good luck. What chip are you running?

Stock chip, not sure which version.

I'll fire up the laptop and shoot the DM file over to you and Tydriver presently... Thanks!
 

sy1907

SYCOTIC
I know what you mean in saying that fp has little to do with the problem, but you said it yourself, a brand new engine, and how long has it been since you looked at your fuel supply components. Isn't it supposed to idle and run very rough if the wastegate on the turbo is froze in the open position? Maybe it happened to our trucks because they sat for a while.
 

TechWeasel

New member
Well, the fuel rail was cleaned and tested before it went back on. All six injectors are brand new. The FPR is a new Mark Martone adjustable unit. The lines to and from the rail were cleaned and tested. The fuel filter is new. I know there's something wrong with the fuel pump/pulsator/sender assembly, because pressure immediately bleeds down once the pump gets turned off. I just don't want to pull the bed and replace the pump, only to once again find out that wasn't the real problem. I'll have to do it eventually, I know... I just don't think I can take another letdown.

BTW, I know the WG isn't frozen and the actuator works because I tested it with my vac/pressure pump before it went back on the engine.
 

sy1907

SYCOTIC
One more idiotic idea. Another car I had was experiencing similar symptoms and it was the voltage regulator that was bad, any correlation? Probably not, just a shot in the dark.
 
B

Blake

Guest
Do you have a mechanical fuel pressure gauge to see what is going on as you are driving it? This would tell you for sure if you see the fuel pressure drop just before a stumble. I've taken off the hood before and duct taped a regular sunpro fuel pressure gauge to the windshield so I could watch it. Just tape up the air bleed line so it doesn't slap around.

Boost checking will probably be out of the question for a while until the engine is properly broken in. Might sound silly but have you done a compression check? Just to make sure. Sounds like you've done everything else.
Blake
 

TechWeasel

New member
Brand new powermaster alternator, new Optima Red Top relocated to the bed... I don't recall seeing weird voltage fluctuations in DM, although I will go and look at the logs and see what the steady-state voltage is.

When I first started to try to diagnose this, I did a compression test, fearing I had a truly bad hole. All six came up 160psi +/-3 psi, and that was with a somewhat lazy battery.

I may end up trying the mechanical FP gauge on the hood to see what the deal is. Since I'm also gonna be taking the truck down to the guy who did the rebuild on my tranny to see why I'm not getting a 3-4 upshift, while he's under there I'll have him check to see if maybe this is vibration from the converter or something...
 

TechWeasel

New member
Ooh, good question! :p

Before I reconnected the fuel lines at the transmission, I jumpered the fuel pump relay and let it pump out what was left of the 2 year old gas in the tank. Then, I changed the fuel filter and put in 5 gallons of fresh Mobil 91 octane, reconnected everything, then jumpered the fuel pump again to purge the air out of the system and dilute the crap that didn't get pumped out.

After I finally got it to run, I took it to the gas station and topped it up with more premium.
 

TechWeasel

New member
OK, here's the latest...

Today, I took the truck over to a guy I know who's one of these motorsports geezers who have done just about anything you can think of. I've been telling him about all this as I went along, so finally he says, "bring it over and let's listen to it".

After looking for intake leaks with carb cleaner for a while, he focused in on the mechanical noise I described earlier, and said it sounded like I might have a bad lifter. While he listened, I pulled the plug wires for the odd-numbered cylinders one by one. Just as before, the engine dropped on all three, but he noticed that the mechanical sound changed or went away entirely on #3.

Monday, I'm taking the truck to a shop he recommended to have them put it on an ignition scope and see if we can confirm that the #3 hole is indeed the wonky one. I don't like where this is going, but I suppose if I have to tear the top of the motor off and replace a lifter to get this thing working right, well, that's just the way it goes...
 

Pittman

New member
Ok I have a quick question since you guys touched on the subject of valve lash. Ive read to twist the pushrods until you feel ressistance and then go another half turn. Well I was wonder is this the right way? What the hell is meant my "resistane" that gets into the realm of opinion.

Ive done that bit with the engine running on an old Nova. All I can say is "damn what a mess I made"
 
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