"Inexpensive, while I'm in there" tranny upgrades

Irid

New member
So I fragged the 2/4 band in the tranny, and am wondering what other parts I should upgrade while I'm in there. We're not talking about building up the tranny from hell here, just trying to make it a little more stout. i.e., if there are two things that always break first, they are the ___ and the ___.

Irid <-- auto tranny unenlightened
 

TurboTony

Active member
For the time and money it takes I'd do the whole thing up while it's out.

Trannys aren't fun to R&R, so why do it twice?


Tony
 

dgoodhue

BuSTeD 4.3
Re: "Inexpensive, while I'm in there" tranny upgr

Re: "Inexpensive, while I'm in there" tranny upgr

.500 TV boost valve and grind off the 2nd land on the pressure regulator.
 

InvisiBill

Active member
Forward sprag. That's the only thing that went on mine...

sprag1.jpg

sprag2.jpg

sprag4.jpg

sprag5.jpg


Like they said though, I'd go through the whole thing. Not necessarily a 10,000hp buildup or anything, but from what I've seen most of the parts themselves are fairly cheap. It'd suck if some other little part went in a month or two...
 

Irid

New member
Wes, how does the forward clutch piston fail?

Seattle Sy, it's up at the shop in Bothel that Roland recommended. If you want to take a peek let me know and I can see when the tranny will be fully apart and see if they don't mind you checking it out.
 

Wes

Donating Member
I was talking to Brian Hartman, he said it's one of the common things that fail. It has these aluminum tabs on the piston that are what press the clutches together, and I guess they sometimes break off.

My first rebuild lasted for 3k miles then went bad, but I sold the truck with the bad tranny so I never saw inside it after it failed. But I explained what it was doing and Brian said most likely it was that piston that failed.

I did a rebuild with his stage 3 kit and it included the steel piston.

Irid said:
Wes, how does the forward clutch piston fail?

Seattle Sy, it's up at the shop in Bothel that Roland recommended. If you want to take a peek let me know and I can see when the tranny will be fully apart and see if they don't mind you checking it out.
 

InvisiBill

Active member
Also, I was terrified after hearing all the rebuild horror stories. I didn't want to ship my tranny halfway across the country and pay a million dollars to have it rebuilt, or be without the Sy for 3 months while I figured out how to put a tranny back together the right way.

Someone said that most of these horror stories seem to involve junkyard rebuilds for a regular V6 tranny. The shop sees it as a V6 S-10 tranny, so that's all they do to rebuild it. They use the wrong housing and parts, little things which probably wouldn't be bad on a regular S-truck. They replace your SyTy-specific parts with regular V6 parts. Our stock tranny is near its limits, so you can figure out what inferior parts will do.

I went into it knowing next to nothing. I looked at howstuffworks.com to learn the basic concept of an auto tranny, and read up on exactly what was special about ours. I blindly relayed the info on to the tranny guy, who had never even seen a SyTy before. I made sure he knew that it did have special parts in it, and that they got back into mine. I've put 10k on it the few months since then, running 13.8's at the track. It seems to act just a little better than stock, with crisper shifts and stuff (from the updates that the service manual says to do). He charged me $700, and my mechanic charged $200 for R&R. That seems to be pretty low on average, but it goes to show that you can get a decent rebuild without spending a fortune.

A tranny is a tranny is a tranny. Despite what some people say, ours is not some magical part that needs to be handled by blessed lefties standing on one foot under a full moon. I think you'd be fine with any good tranny guy who understands that it's not just a V6 S-10 tranny. If they don't listen to that or are dishonest, you'll most likely end up with problems. Even the GM replacement Merk got wasn't the right thing, and required him to dump a few hundred more into it to make it right.

Good luck!
 
B

Blake

Guest
The .500 TV boost valve is an excellent suggestion. They are only like $12.50.

Grinding the land on the pressure regulator valve is good also. Early GM trannie's didn't circulate fluid out of the converter during lockup(from a tech doc by Sonnax), grinding off the land turns it into a fulltime lube system(later 93 3LHM trannies already had the modified valve in them).

Get the stiffer orange spring for the 1-2 accumulator($5)

Flip the the 3-4 accumulator piston. Basically put the spring in first and flip the piston over and put it back in.(Don't need to block it unless the pin in the center was leaking).

You HAVE to replace the forward sprag. Any unit with over 50K miles on it should have the forward sprag replaced no matter what condition it is in.
USE A BORG WARNER UNIT. It has a solid liner top and bottom and the extra "bones" to hold. It will have a gold or copper color to it.

I think Wes meant the overrun clutch piston. I'm sorry, Wes, if I mistated what you meant. The overrun clutch piston tends to blow the seal off on downshift when shift selector is in 3rd. Pressures are increased coupled with engine braking and a steep gear ratio make a hard 2-1 shift when coming to a stop or manually downshifting. Forward clutch piston seal does fail but just not NEARLY as often as the overrun clutch piston seal. Especially if you tow.

Dacco of Detroit sells the steel apply piston with a molded lip instead of a push on seal. It won't come off. The part number is #77762A. If you buy this piston you MUST also get part number 77736A. 77736A is a special spring and retainer setup just for this piston. When you get it apart you'll see why you need it. Get 77763A and 77764A. These are also steel pistons with the seals actually molded right to them. The seals will NEVER tear or blow off. 1997 and up 700s use them but they retro all the way to 82. Their number is 1-800-44-DACCO. See if you can find a local distributer. That way you can walk in and get what you need. They are very inexpensive insurance.
They are a Sonnax distributer also.

If you want a very firm TC clutch apply, you can take a flat head screwdriver, grind a notch in the side close to the tip and use it to reach into input shaft and pull the check ball and retainer out. The ATSG recommends this for HD application ONLY but the SYTY is a HD application. Cost $0
TC clutch apply will be VERY firm.

Get some JB weld(slow set stuff good to 600 degrees F) and seal up the air bleed hole in the input drum. Helps prevent 3-4 clutch burnups. Recommended by several local builders and Transonline(they are a pay site now).

Modify the oil drainback in the pump housing by drilling it out to 9/32". This is in the ATSG and EVERY local builder does it. Prevents blowing out the front seal by reducing back pressure.

Get the Beast sun gear reaction shell. The only difference I have seen between this and the stock 1997 sun gear shell is the rectangular "windows" aren't in line with the little tabs that stick up.

Get a shim or HD purple pump spring from Sonnax(or whoever you decide to buy from)for the pump slide. This holds the pump in the high flow position to increase lube flow. May have some additional "whine" in 1st gear when taking off but small price to pay for higher lube flow. At idle, my pump puts out just over a quart of tranny fluid ever 10 seconds. That's a lot. You want at least on quart every 20 secs at idle.

Let's see...put in the TekPak 700r4 reverse piston capsule. The part number is #77761C. Reduces the size of the orifice and eliminates reverse clutch burnout. You check them out at www.teckpack-fitzall.com This is an ATSG recommendation.

Get rid of the TV check ball from the valvebody. If this checkball fails and sticks, you will burn up your tranny. This check ball stands out because it is larger than the rest. They are all 1/4" checkballs except for this one. If you lay the valve body out, there will be a "finger" kinda sticking out. There is a circular dish machined out to accept the large checkball. Don't put it back in there.

Delete the 5 takeup springs(sometimes called "load release" springs) from the input drum AND drill out the #44 hole in the valve body to .093" You must drill the #44 hole to provide more lube to pass on the 3rd and 4th gear changes. The 3rd and 4th release MUST happen quickly to prevent burnup. You'll notice a much firmer 2-3 if you do this. Don't worry. You're not gonna hurt the tranny. It just keeps from burning up the 3-4 clutches.
Much of this stuff is on http://www.syty.huryde.com/html/Tech/mofotranny.htm

There is a big update coming on the tranny stuff for the site. Instead of making a bunch of little updates, I'm trying to make one big update. Especially since Transonline went to pay per view.

That's about all I can think of right now that is realatively inexpensive for what you are getting in return.

There is a LOT more you can do but this is the cheapest route and helps the tranny significantly. You MUST make sure your clearances are PERFECT on your clutch stacks or you'll burn up the tranny. You have to follow the directions on the ATSG perfectly of you will burn up your tranny. They are sensitive. If your rear driveshaft has mega miles on it like mine, you may want to replace it as well. When you tranny shifts firm up, a failing u-joint will reel its ugly head. Buzzing on acceleration. Very irritating.
 
B

Blake

Guest
I didn't mean to kill the the thread.....there's guys that know a lot more than I do that could add stuff.....just meant to spark some conversation mixed with stuff I've tried. :oops:

Blake
 

jwaller

Evil Genius/SyTy Guru
do not use the oragne accum spring.....the stock syty non painted spring is the stiffest you can get. if you want stiffer then plug it with a pipe plug or use 2 pistons to seal the bores.
 

ericguy320

Stupid Member
can any one tell me about how much the Brian Hartman kits cost i wrote him an e mail but i think he is kina busey. and where do you get a 9/11 converter from
 
B

Blake

Guest
I don't think he's to keen on having kit prices quoted openly. 9/11s can be purchased from Brian Hartman(if you call TCS, they'll forward you to Brian) or here: http://www.transmissioncenter.net/highperf700r4.htm
Look down at the bottom.
John Waller may have some as well.

Hey, John, thanks for replying.
I've been wanting to try a new piston/cup that Sonnax has for the accumulators. It is billet aluminum with dual seals and the sides are deep enough that the pin is deleted so there are no more leaks. Have you given them any thought?
That spring that Sonnax distributes is *VERY* stiff. Much more stiff than the stocker. The stock 1-2 accumulator spring I could squish about 1/2 way with just my fingers. That orange one was much more stout. The wire it is made of was nearly twice as thick as the stocker also. The nice thing about blocking the accumulators though is that it is inexpensive. Can't beat that. Which was the original question.
The reason I liked the orange spring as opposed to flipped or blocked accumulators was strictly for longevity. I just wanted my tranny to last as long or longer than it did stock. I viewed the accumulators as kind of a water hammer arrestor to take up some of the shock to the clutches. Probably not too serious an issue unless your running a really big TV boost valve(I have the .577")
Thanks again, John. I always value your opinion.
Irid, are we helping at all? Hopefully stuff like this helps someone.
Blake
 

Irid

New member
Man that was a ton of good info. I wish I had more understanding about the inner workings of auto trannies; it's basically the only thing I've never built before (always had manual cars before the ty).

The guy I took it to builds trannies for nine second GN's so hopefully he's got some good background. Tomorrow I'll speak with him and see what he thinks about all this input and roll from there.

Otherwise, the info posted here is a good thing to have for others to find in the future! Good s#it.
 

Irid

New member
BTW it was the sun gear shell that failed. It sheared at the connection between the hub and the splines. Nice, clean shear. So there's an art carr HD unit in there now.
 
B

Blake

Guest
Probably the Beast Sun gear shell. Everybody kinda names them after themselves. You shouldn't have any more problems with that part again.
Those things fail quite a bit. Input drum tries to twist it faster than the sun gear wants to move the planetary :eek:
Did they care for any of the rest of the info? Tranny shops don't usually like you telling them what to do. :wink:
Blake
 

TurboTony

Active member
I've seen everyone talk about the "beast" sunshell.

Now, I've never had an actual beast in my hands, but from every pic i've seen it looks just like the updated sunshell that GM sells for the 4l60e trannys.

GM had a problem with the sunshells failing in the 60E trannys when the line pressure was maxed due to a trouble code setting. The came out with this shell to solve the problem. I have a sneaking suspesion that the "beast" is a repacked GM part.

The nice thing is that the new shell is available at any dealer for around 30 bucks.

I'm using that shell in my truck, so far so good. Trust me, I beat the crap outta my truck, no problems yet. :D

Here's the part # for the new shell. 8683439


We are planning to do a step by step tranny rebuild page with pics and all the part #'s sometime in the near future.

Stay tuned kids...


HTH

Tony
 

Ian Turgeon

Cascading Inspiration
TurboTony said:
We are planning to do a step by step tranny rebuild page with pics and all the part #'s sometime in the near future.

:D Thats good to hear. Weve got mike renz working on details with is motor rebuild, now the tranny.. Eventually Im gonna have to update my site :-?
 
B

Blake

Guest
Been doing one on Huryde for a while. Another update is coming soon.
The only difference I saw between the "Beast" and the 4L60e was the rectangular "windows" in the shell didn't line up with the tabs on top. The thrust washer surfaces mic the same. There is another sun gear shell I've seen that is part of a thrust washer eliminator kit that is kinda black in color. Probably just a "Beast" / 4L60e that is machined and heat treated.
I'm digging these sites going up! Be nice to have this info readily available with all kinds of sources for people to go to. Right now there isn't really anything else available except for what we (syty people) put up unless you want to pay per view kinda thing :-?
Blake
 
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