tranny seems to be on its way out

K

kwick6

Donating Member
I just stopped the rebuild video, at the halfway mark. This is the second time I've watched it, and I recognize what the guy is saying now a bit more.
Its kinda long to watch it all the way through, so I thought I'd take a break.

You bring up an excellent point about just going through Mike or one of the known vendors. It'd be much less than I'd need to worry about, but more $$. Either has its advantage/disadvantages.

I'll try to keep things, on topic.

Anyway, I like your opinion about not taking in the list to a shop. I agree 100%, that they don't like to be told how to do their work, and as soon as I'd walk out the door the instructions would get crumbled up and tossed in a garbage can.

So, plan is to keep gathering info about doing this myself. The initial reason to have the shop do the work was because the ty is my only vehicle at this point. I am coming to terms, that it isn't a good idea, and I'll have to find a daily driver.

As soon as I get a daily driver, the tranny will get dropped, and I'll set it up in the basement to do the rebuild. I have much more confidence in myself doing it, with the help of you guys, and the instructions you've put together to do so.

My next step is to pick up the ATSG manuals, can you tell me exactly which ones I need?

That makes sense on the overrun clutches being used in D. Overrun clutches are for engine braking, correct??

Thanks for all the help.
 
dgoodhue

dgoodhue

BuSTeD 4.3
Blake said:
The guys that say "I gotta warranty and I blow em up so it's ok" That's just plain silly. Every time the dealer takes your tranny out, more problems can occur. Bolts/brackets left off, broken lines that don't get replaced, TC gets full of crap and doesn't necessarily get replaced if it "ain't broken". Driveshafts can be damaged, body can be damaged, etc.
Click to expand...

I agree! The more time the dealers R&R the tranny the more chances of damage and stripped bolts...
 
K

kwick6

Donating Member
Blake said:
Kwick6. That guide on Jesse's site is written for a DIYer. Shops are not gonna read it and for the reasons mentioned above, won't be done any other way. Shops make money without sitting down and looking at stuff like that. Sorry I didn't answer that the first time.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I realize that. Was thinking they would consider it in a performance application, but its really not worth taking that chance.


Also, your pump in your tranny comes with a green spring in it. If you want to boost pump pressure 3 to 5 psi at idle, put in a pink spring out of a 700r4 that sits behind a diesel engine. Transtar sells the pink spring but you shouldn't need it.
Click to expand...

Yeah, ok, I got it now. Also, interesting how that mod affects the pressure, requiring a larger TV boost valve....
When you do this, your line pressure will drop by about 50 psi. It is worth it. The systems using the previous valve would allow little to no fluid flow during lockup condition. This makes the tranny/torque converter run very hot. When you do this mod, fluid will flow continuously, even during lockup. To compensate for this, we need to install a larger TV boost valve. #222 and #223 in the above diagram
Your pump came with hardened rings. Just use the parts that come in the kit to rebuild the pump.

Your pump's teflon coated pump bushing will look like someone shot it with buckshot if you have ever put any kind of "cleaner" in your transmission. Don't use that stuff if you know you've got a teflon coated pump busing.

ONLY throw out the 5 load release springs from the input drum IF you DRILL OUT the #44 hole in the separator plate to .093"

Some of these mods will do damage if you don't know what you are doing WHEN you do them. That is one reason shops won't listen to advise from someone who's not doing it.

Oh yeah. Forgot something you mentioned earlier. Your truck is not shifting from 4th to 3rd when you are going 40 mph. Your truck does not shift into 4th gear until you reach 44 to 45 mph. If it is shifting early there is a problem. What you are feeling is the engagement and disengagement of the TC. At constant speeds over 32 mph, the TC will engage. If you increase throttle a certain percent, it releases. If you step on the brake, it releases. If the MAP increases at steady TPS (going up a hill) it will release. You can feel it grab and let go if it is working right.

So you will feel:

1-2 shift
2-3 shift
TCC apply in 3rd
3-4 shift with TCC already applied

Does that help?


If you run Datamaster, you will see the Flag for the TCC go back and forth between 1 and 0 (on and off) but you have to select it. Datamaster doesn't default to TCC monitoring. This stuff is really interesting to me for some reason. Wish I knew why.
Blake
Click to expand...

Yeah, I need to throw datamaster on to see if its TCC or shifting to 4th early. It does it at a constant rate of speed around, 40mph. I'll have to pay more attention next time I'm driving it, and see if it happens without any braking, map changes @ steady TPS/ increase in throttle.

If it is shifting into 4th early, meaning problems, would that mean it would also downshift to 3rd early as well?.... meaning the shift point from 3-4 and 4-3 will happen at the same MPH?
 
B

Blake

Guest
Scott,
Send me your address and I'll go get the manual you need. I looked into making an electronic backup in PDF format of the ATSG a couple years ago and no one was interested. Made me realize how few people do their own stuff. That manual is only like $12 or $15 from the DACCO distributer up by the Dayton Mall here in Ohio.
George
 
K

kwick6

Donating Member
Blake said:
Scott,
Send me your address and I'll go get the manual you need. I looked into making an electronic backup in PDF format of the ATSG a couple years ago and no one was interested. Made me realize how few people do their own stuff. That manual is only like $12 or $15 from the DACCO distributer up by the Dayton Mall here in Ohio.
George
Click to expand...

George, sent ya PM. Thanks.
 
B

Blake

Guest
You want the top one on the left,the Sonnax high perf catalog.
You want the one under it, the transmission specialties vol 4, suppliment A.
There is a really cool accumulator fix piston set shown and explained in that one. The next tranny I build will have thost pistons in the accumulators. Three times longer than stock with two sealing rings. That way they seal and don't cock in the bore.
You also want the one directly next to that one. The Sonnax transmissions specialties Vol. 4.(the purple one). That is the one with the hardened stators, 1-2 accum springs, 3-4 upshift valve/sleeve, shift accumulator valve assortments.....etc.
That shop was out of the 700R4 87 to 93 ATSG and they have increased the price to $19.50ea :evil:

JC Whitney sells them for $14.50. Might not be bad if you need something else also.
Their part number for it is #81AU0391N

I've recently received a couple requests for a PDF CDRom version. I'm gonna start working on it tonite.
 
B

Blake

Guest
Forgot something, Scott.
You need a Teckpak Fitzall catalog.
Go to
www.teckpak-fitzall.com
The specific part you are looking for is the 77761C
flow restricting reverse piston capsule. Prevents sluggish engagement of reverse and clutch burnup. They have tons of specialty tools and bushings and such too.
They also sell 700R4 to trubo 350 coversion kits(just the mounts), 700r4 to 400 conversion kits(make sure you specify for 4x4 as they have different listings and pics are different).
 
K

kwick6

Donating Member
Blake said:
You want the top one on the left,the Sonnax high perf catalog.
You want the one under it, the transmission specialties vol 4, suppliment A.
There is a really cool accumulator fix piston set shown and explained in that one. The next tranny I build will have thost pistons in the accumulators. Three times longer than stock with two sealing rings. That way they seal and don't cock in the bore.
You also want the one directly next to that one. The Sonnax transmissions specialties Vol. 4.(the purple one). That is the one with the hardened stators, 1-2 accum springs, 3-4 upshift valve/sleeve, shift accumulator valve assortments.....etc.
That shop was out of the 700R4 87 to 93 ATSG and they have increased the price to $19.50ea :evil:

JC Whitney sells them for $14.50. Might not be bad if you need something else also.
Their part number for it is #81AU0391N

I've recently received a couple requests for a PDF CDRom version. I'm gonna start working on it tonite.
Click to expand...

Ok, I'll order those then.

So that place you mentioned by the Dayton Mall was all out of the ATSG?
I should be able to find one around here or order it from JC.

Thanks for trying to get it for me. I appreciate it.

On the teckpak, probably need to send them a request or call for a catalog, as I didn't see an order form for one.

Also, I was thinking of maybe taking the pump in to a tranny shop to have the bushing done, so I didn't have to buy the tool.

later,
 
B

Blake

Guest
Heck, you might as well get one of the hardened stators if you do that. I took mine to a machine shop right next to the tranny shop. They heated the three torx bolts, got them out. Pressed out the old stator and pressed in the new stator and then installed the input shaft bushing in the stator for me. $20. Money well spent. Especially when you don't have time to fab up a bunch of stuff or you don't have a press. Just put the pump on the input drum and spin it to be sure it spins freely. That way you know both bushings are in straight.

Here's the direct link to the JCWhitney ATSG for the 700:

http://www.jcwhitney.com/SearchCatContainer.jhtml?_requestid=14874
George
 
K

kwick6

Donating Member
Blake said:
Heck, you might as well get one of the hardened stators if you do that. I took mine to a machine shop right next to the tranny shop. They heated the three torx bolts, got them out. Pressed out the old stator and pressed in the new stator and then installed the input shaft bushing in the stator for me. $20. Money well spent. Especially when you don't have time to fab up a bunch of stuff or you don't have a press. Just put the pump on the input drum and spin it to be sure it spins freely. That way you know both bushings are in straight.

Here's the direct link to the JCWhitney ATSG for the 700:

http://www.jcwhitney.com/SearchCatContainer.jhtml?_requestid=14874
George
Click to expand...

I'll keep the stator option in mind.

I just ordered the manual from Makco, same price $14, but shipping was a few dollars cheaper.

Also, I was trying to find the Haynes GM automatic transmission book. The one listed at the bottom of this page on Falco's site.
 
B

Blake

Guest
That one will be available at any book store you walk into. I got mine at Border's up by the Dayton Mall for $16.95. The two of them together along with the video will get you through it. Only special tools are on the web site and you can make those. The rest are magnetic pickup, a pair of snap ring pliers, a good set of feeler gauges and a pop can cut up to put the new teflon seals on the input shaft and big end of the stator and some hose clamps to resize them. Some strange people put them in the freezer to help shrink them back down :p
If you go with the 9 clutch friction stackup from Alto it will come with these instructions and their recommendation for clearances using their clutches.

The instructions for the Red Frictions used in the 9 stack are here:
http://www.altousa.com/ib57757b.htm
You will use the instructions for the 4L60E if you have a 93 Ty because of the udated one piece apply. I recommend getting the one piece apply plate for the Sys along with the #7 apply ring. The first one I did this with was Jesse's and it fit right in and worked great.
Part number 057757BHP

George
 
K

kwick6

Donating Member
Blake said:
That one will be available at any book store you walk into. I got mine at Border's up by the Dayton Mall for $16.95. The two of them together along with the video will get you through it. Only special tools are on the web site and you can make those. The rest are magnetic pickup, a pair of snap ring pliers, a good set of feeler gauges and a pop can cut up to put the new teflon seals on the input shaft and big end of the stator and some hose clamps to resize them. Some strange people put them in the freezer to help shrink them back down :p
If you go with the 9 clutch friction stackup from Alto it will come with these instructions and their recommendation for clearances using their clutches.

The instructions for the Red Frictions used in the 9 stack are here:
http://www.altousa.com/ib57757b.htm
You will use the instructions for the 4L60E if you have a 93 Ty because of the udated one piece apply. I recommend getting the one piece apply plate for the Sys along with the #7 apply ring. The first one I did this with was Jesse's and it fit right in and worked great.
Part number 057757BHP

George
Click to expand...

Found the Haynes book on ebay and got it for like 15 shipped. The local borders had it, but was $19, and I had just enough in paypal I needed to spend. :D

The truck still shifts strong, but appears to go into 4th at around 41mph, but thats going by the speedometer, not datamaster.

I've never really experienced what a tired tranny feels like, or if what I'm noticing is that or another issue.

I've always replaced my ignition stuff way before it could start to cause issues, so I've never seen the famous "tach dance" I am noticing that cruising along at 40mph or so, every once in a great while the rpm will shift up/down 100-200 rpm, and I'm not sure if thats what clutches feel like as they get weaker...?

I always thought of tach dance as being the needle jumping all over the place. This is very slightly, and you can really feel the engine or tranny, whichever it is, really change in how its dealing with the load on it.

So is tach dance like an electrical thing that makes the needle go crazy?,
or
Can it be an actual feeling of the engine changing rpms?, causing a slight loss/ or lack of power if the rpm drops 100 or so.
 
K

kwick6

Donating Member
Blake said:
Scott,
Look here http://www.tvmadeez.com/article/part3.html
(Parts 1 and 2 explain TV and how to set it properly)

and see if the SSS syndrome describes what you are going through. Read the whole thing but the SSS looks like what you have from what you wrote.
George
Click to expand...

The last time I set the TV cable, I basically pushed in the tab , pulled back(away from the throttle body) on the the plastic cable housing till it wouldn't go any further. Then I took the throttle cable assembly bracket and rotated it, as it clicked a couple times and as it reached the point where it almost wouldn't rotate anymore it made a real distinct snap. I left it at that.

I took it for a drive. Slowly started out just so it would shift from 1-2, then when it went to 2nd, I hit the throttle hard to see if it'd downshift to 1st. It did so I left it.

I think I understand your thinking on the SSS thing. But in my case the 1-2 seems to happen late, and is slightly neck snapping. Its the 3-4 that seems to happen a little on the early side, and is barely a noticeable shift.
 
jwaller

jwaller

Evil Genius/SyTy Guru
if you keep driving it you are just goin to cost yourself more in the long run as you continue to do more and more damage to your core.
 
K

kwick6

Donating Member
I'm not sure when the engine braking is supposed to occur, because I actually still have it in 3rd when I let off the throttle at around 40mph.
Just don't have any at lower speeds.

I could be making this out to be more serious than it actually is, I don't know. I do know the truck has high miles, and its just a matter of time. So with that in mind, I'm trying to learn about doing the rebuild myself.

I'm also looking to find a beater car so I can park the truck ASAP, and rebuild the tranny.
 
K

kwick6

Donating Member
Doing some more reading up on this. I was reading on the accumulator function, its intended to absorb the force of the fluid.

Does the accumulator piston absorb the force of the fluid in the entire valve body?

The haynes book describes how "fluid shock" can occur if there is nothing to absorb the force. That would explain a really harsh 1-2 shift, even if the TV cable was set correctly, wouldn't it?

I suppose it could also be one of the valves sticking in the valve body thats causing it to shift hard as well.

Whatever it is, the pressure seems to be too high the way it is now, so I'll be pushing the cable back towards the throttle body to lower the pressure a little. Another reason why I think the pressure is a little high is the late and harsh 1-2 shift, which would mean the governer is having to spin too fast to overcome the pressure of the TV pressure, to move the 1-2 shift valve.
 
B

Blake

Guest
The 1-2 accumulator and the 3-4 accumulators absorb the "hammer" effect of THAT particular circuit. I like using the HD sonnax spring in both. That way you don't lose the effectiveness of the design.
A "harsh" 1-2 will have to be acertained from driving another truck. These are supposed to have a harsh 1-2. But. If there is some delay during the shift and then the 2-4 "slams", that is not right. It may be time to park it until you get it rebuilt or replaced. Your either gonna do more damage or leave yourself stranded.
George
 
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