(Very) Frustrated Newbie

[Racer X]

Okay, I may not be the brightest guy in the world but my truck is driving me crazy!! :rant: I will appologize up front for the length of this thread but I need to vent.

I bought a gorgeous 1993 stock Typhoon about a year and-a-half ago. It's been my dream to own one of these fine machines for over 10 years. Anyway I loved the truck until I had the ATR Stage 3 kit installed. This included:

TE 44 Turbo
160 Thermostat
3" Downpipe
ATR External Wastegate
7th injector--I can't believe they still make those
3" Mandrel bent exhaust
Aux. Intercooler (that blocks the radiator and causes the truck to overheat)
Transmission Cooler
Pitbull chip
And a bunch of other junk that I would like to forget.

Anyway, the truck ran awfully until I found SyTy.net and you guys have been great!

After finding this site (and saving more $$) I ditched the 7th injector in favor of some 50lb injectors and bought a chip from a recommended vendor. I was excited and could hardly wait to drive my truck. Well, it knocked so hard that I thought I would blow a headgasket. You could feel and hear the truck knocking.

I didn't drive the truck for two months and I saved more $ and bought a Laptop and DataMaster. The laptop showed that I was getting up to 20 degrees of knock!! :rant:

I changed the spark plugs (gapped to .35), coil (MSD), rotor, wires, checked the vacuum lines and proceeded to get a mere 18 degrees of knock--yikes!!

Realizing that I was in over my head I found someone who knows about these trucks. He took it drove it for a week, tweaked the fuel pressure, changed the bleeder valve, changed the setting on the thumbwheel and said that the truck was getting a little heat soaked because it has been so hot in Michigan lately and recommended that I get a smaller heat exchanger. The truck ran great--for a day!!!!!

Two days and 20 miles later the truck is overboosting big time! I disconnected the vacuum line on my ATR external wastegate in an attempt to set my base boost level and got 19 degrees of knock with the boost turned down!! I don't think my wastegate is working at all. I was thinking about getting either an ITS Minigate or a TIAL. However, I can't find a vendor who has a TIAL in stock. What size fits out trucks? Is the difference in price worth it?

Interestingly, the DM file shows that my RPMs will spike to 6350 and then drop to 2000. Help!! I had another DM file that showed the same high RPM phenomenon in one frame and then a drop in the next. I ignored it until it happend two more times and then I changed the plugs and it seemingly went away. Now it's back.

I would love to post the files for someone to review but I am not sure how. Sorry for the long thread but I'm very, very, very frustrated.

 

[Deanzsyclone]

Re: (Very) Frustrated Newbie

I'm surprised that the intercooler would be blocking the radiator flow, have you checked the clutch on your fan, and do you still have the fan shroud on?
That data master rpm spike sounds like some sort of wiring issue, as though something is disconecting for a brief moment and then reconecting, or posibly shorting out for a brief moment showing this false rpm spike. Maybe it's playing havoc with your air fuel ratio.. Sure wish I could point you in the right direction, sounds like a doozy, espeically with THAT much knock retard.

 

[InvisiBill]

Re: (Very) Frustrated Newbie

Where in Michigan are you? I don't have much experience with heavily modded trucks, but I'd be willing to take a look at it and throw out some random suggestions, most of which probably won't help. =)

6350 is way above the stock redline... Sometimes data errors on my laptop will show a "spike" of knock which doesn't exist. If you're not really at 6350rpm at the time, I'd be a lot more likely to think that's just a glitch in the data collection.

If you can email me the files, I can throw them up on my website for others to look over.

 

[ghettosled]

Re: (Very) Frustrated Newbie

Detonation is typically caused by one of seval things.. Too much timing, not enough fuel, or too low of octane (which correlates to the amount of boost you can run)

So..... to start you need to verify you are getting base boost. You mention you dont think the wg is working, so how much boost is it actually making?? Next manually check the timing with a timing light (TDC check is also preferred) and make sure the timing is set correctly. If now the truck is making base boost, with correct timing, check fuel pressure at WOT.. Hopefully it is not dropping, which could be caused due to a weak fp, or clogged fuel filter.. If all the above seem to be ok, then your problem may take some more hands on work.. With 20 deg of retard, it seems you have a severe detonation problem which is typically beyond the point of just a tuneup. At this point i would look into the ecu/chip/map sensor/distributor. Above and beyond just the basic mechanics of the engine.. Are you running an ultimate chip, or a custom burn?

As for the overheating, Dean made a good suggestion. i dont think it is your Aux cooler causing the overheating issues.. Look into flushing/purging your cooling system, lowering your antifreeze level for the summer time, replacing the thermostat, and verify that the water pump and/or clutch fan are working properly..

 

[kwick6]

Re: (Very) Frustrated Newbie

We need to coordinate some wrench sessions around here to get you some help.

I am putting in 16+ hour days three days a week, and usually don't get home till 1am and am back out the door in the morning at 9am. If I make it to Woodward , then I'll see if we can get a couple datamaster runs of your truck and see whats going on.

I'll make a call tomorrow to see if I can get a TiAL 38mm overnighted, so give me a call around 1:00pm and I should have an answer for you.

 

[VermontTy]

Re: (Very) Frustrated Newbie

First off.....let me say this. I'm probably speak for many here when I say that the normal "Newbie, needs help!" post is about completely useless. Normally, there is very little info, and even less ambition from the owner. EXCELLENT job of researching your problem, asking questions, learning on your own, purchasing tuning aids like DM and trying to resolve the problem yourself.

Did the "Stage 3" kit come with a 3BAR MAP sensor? If so, is the chip burned for more than 14.7psi?
On DM, what are your boost levels when you're knocking so hard? Are you knocking at 6-7psi, or is it up 15+?
I assume you're not running 93 octane, right?
What is your base fuel pressure, and does it match what the chip was burned for?

 

[Maverick87]

Re: (Very) Frustrated Newbie

If you disconnect the vac line going to the wg you have NO boost control. Also did you port on the wg. If not that will be some of your boost problems. Take the bleeder out of the loop run a line from the compressor side of the turbo to the bottom port of the wg that will give you base boost. then work on getting rid of the knock.

 

[Spinall4]

Re: (Very) Frustrated Newbie

I would like to throw in my 2 cents here. I run the ATR aux ic, and a 160 thermostat. My temps never move more than about 1/8" above the lowest mark on the factory temp gauge. This is in about 100 degree temps here in utah.

 

[blk00z28]

Re: (Very) Frustrated Newbie

Mine hits the half way mark quite often if I'm on it more then idle around town in a 95 degree day here. IC temps are like around 130 as well. :roll:

I'm with the other guys on the fan. If not that maybe your water pump is starting to go out. :dunno:

 

[ghettosled]

Re: (Very) Frustrated Newbie

I would like to throw in my 2 cents here. I run the ATR aux ic, and a 160 thermostat. My temps never move more than about 1/8" above the lowest mark on the factory temp gauge. This is in about 100 degree temps here in utah.

no offense but that is completely meaningless.. The 1/4 mark on the factory gauge reads anywhere from 140-190 degrees. Once you get to know your truck you will have a better idea of when it starts to run hot, but if you are trying to compare temps you atleast need to verify it with a real gauge whether it be through the ecu, or an aftermarket gauge. But in any case, it shouldn't overheat as many trucks have that setup with trans coolers on top of the aux cooler..

 

[VermontTy]

Re: (Very) Frustrated Newbie

Maybe Racer X is reading temp off DM to determine overheating? :dunno: If not, I agree Mike.

My temp gauge was REAL high (near pegged all the time, but still had sweep / movement) when I first got my truck, and DM showed 180 flat. I tore apart the cluster and swapped in the fuel / temp / oil pressure / battery gauge set from a donor cluster, and it is far more accurate (160 thermostat now too). I haven't got DM in the mail yet to check gauge / sensor accuracy, but 160 temps look like ~160 on the gauge.

 

[GAShan]

Re: (Very) Frustrated Newbie

See if it's the original short block. Many replacement GM engines had non-turbo pistons and compression was too high. Do a compression check to see if you suspect it might have been changed by a previous owner. Would explain so much knock.

 

[Mad Mike]

Re: (Very) Frustrated Newbie

After finding this site (and saving more $$) I ditched the 7th injector in favor of some 50lb injectors and bought a chip from a recommended vendor..

What chip did you buy? Does it require a 3 bar map and is it programmed for 50lb injectors?

 

[cloneman315]

Re: (Very) Frustrated Newbie

did u do a fuel pump upgrade ?

 

[warmpancakes]

Re: (Very) Frustrated Newbie

Bring it by Im sure we can figure it out, Kwick6 and beavis are close by Me ive figure out worse so let me know.

 

[Beavis]

Re: (Very) Frustrated Newbie

get a hold of one or some of us before you need a motor.

 

[leadfoot]

Re: (Very) Frustrated Newbie

Does the ECM throw any codes?

Can you change out the ECM with another (with similar mods/chip) to see if it acts any different?

Is the MAP sensor bad?

 

[Racer X]

Re: (Very) Frustrated Newbie

Wow! Thanks for the responses. InvisBill, I will e-mail you the DM files tomorrow. Thanks for the kind offer. Warmpancakes, thanks for your offer to help. I think I will take you up on your offer. I called my sister and asked her to look for you in the location listed on your avatar but luckily she couldn't find you (smile). Are you in the Metropolitan Detroit area? If so, are you planning to attend the Dream Cruise? Unfortunately, I won't be able to make it out until the late afternoon--I have a funeral to attend.

To answer some of the other questions and respond to some of the suggestions here goes:

1. The high RPM spike is quite troubling. Obviously it doesn't show on the tach, but it does on the DM Files and the car seems to miss when it does it happens.
2. I have a Phil Long chip burned for 50lbers and a 3 Bar Map. My truck seems to run best on setting 6.
3. I had a friend use a wide band O2 to help tune it for the optimal A/F ratio and we had to drop the fuel pressure to 41 pounds.
4. I haven't done a fuel pump upgrade yet, but fuel pressure doesn't seem to be an issue--but I could be very wrong.
5. I hadn't considered the non-original block idea. Where are the numbers on these blocks? That would really suck!!!
6. I will re-check the timing tomorrow.

Thanks again for all of your responses and suggestions.

 

[TYTILIDIE]

Re: (Very) Frustrated Newbie

Damn you ahve all those mods and a stock Fuel Pump? And I thought I had balls. On the RPM spikes it really sound s like collection error as someoelse sugggested earlier.

Mike

 

[InvisiBill]

Re: (Very) Frustrated Newbie

1. The high RPM spike is quite troubling. Obviously it doesn't show on the tach, but it does on the DM Files and the car seems to miss when it does it happens.

That could be a more general electrical problem. People have had issues where the ECM doesn't get enough power, and actually requires a new 12V line run to it. If you're having some power issues, that could cause a glitch in the data collection and/or ECM, as well as not having enough power for the ignition to work properly. This issue might not be a direct cause-effect thing, but it could all be related.

2. I have a Phil Long chip burned for 50lbers and a 3 Bar Map. My truck seems to run best on setting 6.

Stupid question. You mentioned 50lb injectors, but you do have a 3bar sensor, right? The 3bar sensor is not an extension of the 2bar. Both use the same voltage range or whatever to show their different MAPs. You cannot interchange the two sensors.

3. I had a friend use a wide band O2 to help tune it for the optimal A/F ratio and we had to drop the fuel pressure to 41 pounds.

Is that all you did to "tune" it, change the fuel pressure? If you just tweaked the FP after getting a chip from Phil, you may have optimized it for whatever range you did your wideband testing in, but that unoptimized it for other ranges since the chip wasn't changed. That's probably barely coherent, but if Phil burned the chip a certain way, then you adjusted FP to make it run better at WOT, the different FP might make it run worse at part throttle (just as an example).

4. I haven't done a fuel pump upgrade yet, but fuel pressure doesn't seem to be an issue--but I could be very wrong.

Fuel pumps seem to just completely die most of the time for people that I know, but it seems to be different around here. The stock fuel pumps are just barely enough for a stock truck. If you want more performance and/or the pump is starting to get old and tired, it's possible for it to work ok at part throttle, but have problems at WOT. If you have a FP gauge that you can watch while you drive it, that could tell you. Once the DM runs get posted, that should also show if the truck is leaning out.