Ignition Upgrades

[GEN3Typhoon]

I have been looking around... is there any quanitative information that shows we have benefitted from using an MSD box and an upgraded coil, like an MSD

I have already added thier distributor.. I think that is an obviously stronger and better unit from a reliability standpoint..

But the question remains.. the box and the coil are pretty cheap.. but is there really a benefit from it.

 

[E-Rue]

if i remeber what i read correctly the only significant advantage would be at 24+ PSI, as the stock ignition starts to have a hard time lighting off the mix. ive heard a few different people say they have to gap the plugs a little tighter at big boost.

e

 

[jwaller]

if i remeber what i read correctly the only significant advantage would be at 24+ PSI, as the stock ignition starts to have a hard time lighting off the mix. ive heard a few different people say they have to gap the plugs a little tighter at big boost.

e

ditto!

 

[GEN3Typhoon]

Well I guess I better upgrade then... there is another couple of hundred..

 

[smeagol]

If you are going to do MSD, I'd do one of the digital setups.

If you are really dedicated - do the Edist.


The CDI stuff is marginally better than stock, coil near plug setup versus stock is like chihuahua versus a wolverine.

 

[GEN3Typhoon]

Well I have the FAST set up.. that is their EDIST right?

I tried to check their web page... want to see what the advantages are.

 

[smeagol]

It is made by FAST, but it should work on any vehicle, as long as you have the right coils.

Basically here's the layout:

provide your EST line out from your computer (doesn't matter whether it's FAST, DFI, or stock) to the eDist module

provide a cam sync signal (this would most easily come from a modified distributor of some sort) to the eDist

power and ground supplied to the eDist

eDist then outputs signals to the coils to fire; best ones to use would be LS1 coils, as they are easy to find, powerful, you can find them with the harnesses intact, plug wires are easily made up.

I have tuned several Supras that run FAST and LS1 coils with eDist, so I know it works. We had problems getting it to run with an oddfire, but I think that is a symptom of the oddfire setup.

So instead of spending hundreds for MSD module, upgraded coil etc, you spend it on finding LS1 coils - should be able to find a set of 8 with harness & brackets for 100-200 bucks - the eDist, for 200-300 (?), custom wires - you need LT1/LS1 style plug ends, I believe some companies will offer the plug ends only, so you can custom make wires. OR alternatively, the NEWER 4.3's have that goofy distributor with oddball terminals - those terminals are the same as the LS1 coils. So if MSD or whoever makes a kit to fit the newer 4.3's, those should work.

Anyways, not *easy* by any means, but well worth the work if you did it IMO.

It's on my list of things to do, which is a long list...

 

[GEN3Typhoon]

http://www.fuelairspark.com/Information/Catalog/FS2001/12.pdf

There is the catalog page for anyone interested.

I have see you guys talking about this before... so this would get you away from using a distributor also? This I would be interesting in. There is not a lot of information on it here. I know this has been discussed here before.. the problem is figuring out what signal it needs and getting that from some particular sensor.

Also, I already have the FAST ECU on my Ty.

Interesting to be sure.. I would like to go with the LS1 coils... I also hate the be the guinea pig. At least with a Supra, you already have the crank sensor/cam sensor.

 

[smeagol]

http://www.fuelairspark.com/Information/Catalog/FS2001/12.pdf

There is the catalog page for anyone interested.

I have see you guys talking about this before... so this would get you away from using a distributor also? This I would be interesting in. There is not a lot of information on it here. I know this has been discussed here before.. the problem is figuring out what signal it needs and getting that from some particular sensor.

Also, I already have the FAST ECU on my Ty.

Interesting to be sure.. I would like to go with the LS1 coils... I also hate the be the guinea pig. At least with a Supra, you already have the crank sensor/cam sensor.

yep i hear ya. LS1 coils would be great, but being a guinea pig is definitely not fun.

Having the FAST in there really doesn't change things, no matter what ECM, all you are going to use from the computer is the EST (ignition line).

Here's one thought; I'm not sure what your timeline is for your truck moving; you may just want to do the stock ignition for getting it going, start tuning it, if you start to push it this year, do the upgrade to a 6a or something cheap, then plan on something stupid like the eDist over winter next year. I hit 21-22psi on the stock ignition system with no problems, just something worth mentioning.

Doing the eDist isn't something to do in a weekend, typically because you have 2 sides of the whole install - making it look nice, with the mounting of coils, running new wires, running new sensor wires - and the second part of it, the technical side - making sure the signals are correct, what do ya do if it won't fire the truck, is the timing set accurate now.

The way I'd do it is to research the cam signal and modify a stock distributor to create that signal. Stock distributor isn't worth much, and you still need something to drive the oil pump anyways, as well as provide an RPM signal. Once you have a cam sensor that works, wiring the eDist isn't super difficult. I wouldn't recommend it for a newbie, for sure, which you are definitely beyond :wink:

Anyways, i thought I'd throw it out there, not knowing your schedule, timeline, budget. I think it's the ultimate in ignition.

 

[GEN3Typhoon]

The truck SHOULD be moving this weekend to next week.

So I am going to start with the stock ignition.. I will have to swap in the built tranny, which I think I am going to do this fall so I can drive the truck around some. So I will do exactly what you are saying.

I will be waiting for fall, but I will put out some feelers for some coils. And I will talk to the guys at FAST about the signals it needs. Unless you have already done this? :lol:

I would like to do it for what my ultimate goal is... I will probably just blast around on 18-20 psi for now anyway. I ran 22 on the stock ignition before too.. but that was a much smaller turbo than the T66 that is on there now...

Sounds like a good project.. once a person has the cam signal figured out.. the rest of it would be simple. Wiring it would be no problem.

 

[smeagol]

I've had to talk to the guys at FAST too many times to sort it all out. Most of my questions had simple answers, the problems we had probably lie in the fact we were trying to run an oddfire motor.

It's really simple in some aspects, but can get confusing.

Once you hook all of it up correctly, all you need to do is set the cam signal to fire at the right time, then make sure the wires for each coil go to the right coil... so coil #1 fires cylinder #1

If/when I get around to this project, I may make up a *really* nice harness, then send it to Casper's, so he can duplicate it for other people interested in doing it. Once that is done, the cam signal is the only tricky part.

 

[GEN3Typhoon]

I build wire harnesses, etc... for engines, NOS (Fast and Furious) setups, etc. I have access to all the packard connectors, etc.

I will look into this a bit more.

So, I know this has been asked a ton... it says the signal is a 4x signal that it needs.. I am assuming this means it needs to fire 4x per revolution. Couldn't this be as simple as removed the rotor in the even fire MSD dist that I have and making one with 4... or an I over simplifying it? Assuming the output signal would be ok... just brainstorming here.

 

[smeagol]

That is referring to a V8, more specifically the LS1. The LS1 electronics don't have a flying magnet, 4x pulse. They have a toothed wheel, for cam & crank. So they are saying if you want to run the eDist on an LS1, you need some sort of 4x signal, say a crank trigger.

If you want a V6, you need a 3x signal, like a V6 crank trigger, or the signal generated by the EST line. This is a regular 3x pulse, just delayed or advanced for more/less timing, so you have computer control of timing still.

So again, it comes back to just generating a cam signal.

 

[GEN3Typhoon]

I see... so you can just use a standard crank trigger for a V6.

What I was getting at is .. it would be nice to be able to generate both signals from the same source.

The Cam is tied directly to the crank.. so what would thedifference be in the two.. just some factor that is the ratio of the crank gear to the cam gear. So I think it would be possible to generate both of them from the same source.

*edit* and related to the ratio of the cam gear to the dist gear.. which I think is 1:1... but that would be simple enough to figure out.

Just brainstorming.

 

[smeagol]

You don't need a crank trigger if you keep your stock distributor, if you used a crank trigger, your timing will remain static. You use your EST line - EST is modified like i noted above, to control the timing advance/retard.

so it goes like this:

crank signal (either via crank trigger or stock distributor signal)
\/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/
ECM (stock/FAST/DFI etc) modifies signal to advance/retard signal
\/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/
ignition system (stock coil firing through distributor, or eDist)


The reason you need a cam signal is to differentiate TDC compression from TDC exhaust... make sense? Imagine setting up the distributor firing 180 degrees out - you are firing when the piston comes up forcing exhaust out, rather than firing the plug when the piston comes up compressing the mixture (like it's supposed to be). The cam signal needs to be once per 720 degrees (once per 2 rotations); the cam spins at half speed of the crank, so it's a cam reference signal. This will be needed so the eDist 'knows' what stroke to fire the coils at.

I have some more detailed instructions, but not on the web right now, i made up a .pdf to show it even. I'll have to post it to explain better.

You can generate both signals from a modified stock distributor. The stock distributor already generates a 3x pulse. If you tear it apart, you'll see 6 points, generating 6 pulses per 2 rotations (cam is at 1/2 speed of the rank), or 3x pulse. Keep those in place, put some sort of simple sensor in place of the rotor up top to create a cam reference pulse (which is really a 1/2 x pulse if you think about it) and you are set. The cam sensor setup needs to be adjustable independently of the crank signal, for the best design.

 

[GEN3Typhoon]

Yeah.. that is what I just said... LOL

I understand perfectly....

Seems like you are already using the dist, ECU, etc. to tell the stock ignition when to fire, so it does not seem like that would be the problem, seems you already have that signal with the dist.

Or maybe that was what you were getting at.

I understand what you are saying though.. just does not seem like it would be that hard to figure it out.

 

[BigAl...]

Good thread guys, I recently did a SBC TT Camaro were we used four msd 8224 coils (msd coil similar to a GN coil, two outputs) sequential FAST system, an edist and a MSD dis4. What we did was use the MSD "oil plug" it's basically a distributor with the top cut off used only to run the oil pump. We attached a machined shaft to the top of it with two magnets and of course two inductive p/u coils (one for the edist cam sync and one for the sequential FAST sync) and of course ran a MSD crank wheel. the reason for the dis4 was because FAST told us that you couldn't drive the coils straight from the edist so we used the dis4 as the ignitor. BG you're saying that you can run the ls1 coils directly off of the edist??? If so does that mean the ls1 coils have a builtin ignitor? doing a dis on the sy seems as simple as 1: find six ls1 coils 2: buy the edist (to split the coil signal into six) 3: buy a crank wheel or use both signals from the stock distributor. This is assuming the ls1 coils have there own ignitor if not you must use something like the dis4.

Great thread guys.

BigA...

 

[smeagol]

the trick part to all of this is to create a cam sensor - we don't have one in a syty

otherwise - the parts you need are coils/eDist/wiring

the LS1 coils are 'smart' coils... just gotta give them power, ground & a signal to trigger them, and they work great.

I've heard they have a high rpm limit though, but I believe it was ungodly high, like 10,000 or something...

Bruce Plecan rigged his Buick up with them, and they gave him a HUGE seat of the pants improvement - not referring to performance, though that probably improved, but idle, drivability, response. They also allowed him to open his plug gaps up big time.

 

[GEN3Typhoon]

Well... what did he use for a cam sensor on those?

I have a buddy that works at GM and I emailed him and asked him to hunt me down a set and the wiring to go with them.

I will also look at the Corvette Expo here in Knoxville this weekend.

 

[BigAl...]

The cam sensor is the easy part. you can use the stock dist or even something crazy like a magnet on the cam gear. what we did with the oil plug worked really good because you could adv/ret when ever you wanted. This ls1 coils setup is getting easier hmmmm, time to start looking for some ls1 coils.

BigAl...