I'm super retarded, not like Rainman, like Forest.

[RSpengler]

I would like to thank everyone who offered so much help and advice on the problem I was having with my truck. The answer has been found.

Its me. Im stupid. That was/is the problem. Okay, well its part of the problem.

1: Early in my troubles my valve lash was out of adjustment. That was part of the issue kept it from running in the begining, with the stock chip and injectors

2: My coil Pick-up was bad. As soon as I replaced the Coil Pick-Up and reset the timing, my distributer lined up properly. Unfortunately the pick-up was the LAST thing I replaced (after injectors, chip, map, etc), so that was the reason #2 that hindered it from running in the begining and PART of what kept it from running after the Ultimate was put in.

3. This is why I'm and idiot. My ultimate was not seated completely in the Memcal holder. I thought I could cheat and keep the lock tabs intact. I was wrong. Today, I chopped up the left lock tab, Re-installed my ultimate, and it fired right up and idled right away...

"Right on!" You say, "No big deal, we all make mistakes sometimes?", right? Wrong. Since I ran it so many times pig ass rich, with black smoke and backfires and all, I either ended up washing the cylinder walls, or I burned a valve early on, while the valve lash was out of adjusment.

I Checked compression today on my fancy new 0 mile (driveway time only) engine after all this. 100psi in the #1 cyl. Fuct up. I didn't bother even checking the others, I was so dismayed. So, tomorrow, I guess I try to check the compression in the others and add oil to the cylinders to see if its the valve or the rings.... If its a burned valve (which I think isn't very likely), a fresh set of Vortecs are going on. If its the rings (more likely), out comes the engine and back into the shop to get a fresh hone and some new rings. I can only hope that if it is the rings, that it hasn't gouged up the walls to the point of needing to be bored. I REALLY dont want to have to put new pistons in it.

So when the engine comes back from the shop, it will be better than ever, sporting a new set of Vortecs, a Comp 412 cam, and EVERYTHING else electrical will be brand new. Should drop right in and fire right up this time.... NO WHAMMIES!

-Rob
:stupid:

 

[AUSyTyIN]

Re: I'm super retarded, not like Rainman, like Forest.

Woah, hang on a sec. Your rings haven't had a chance to seat. Drive the motor for 500 miles, then check it.

 

['JustDreamin']

Re: I'm super retarded, not like Rainman, like Forest.

Hey, don't panic yet, and don't go pulling the motor just yet.

1st off, check the compression on the other 5. Are they all right there together or is #1 way off @100 and the other 5 are at like 150?

Also, what compression ratio pistons are in it? 100psi is certainly low for a 12:1 NA motor, but if you've got an 8:1 motor with rings that haven't seated yet, then its probably close to what would be expected.

What kind of oil you running? Dino or synthetic?

And lastly, don't be so hard on yourself. We all do things that we spend the next 5 years trying to live down or forget (not sure which is worse). Heck, doing stupid things is 1 of my 3 primary talents (the other two are sleeping and avoiding work). So, hang in there, don't automatically assume the worst, and check it out the rest of the way. And don't be afraid to get a professional opinion from somebody you trust (maybe the machine shop who put the motor together?) on the engine's condition.

'JustDreamin'

 

[RSpengler]

Re: I'm super retarded, not like Rainman, like Forest.

Originally Posted by 16Sy16
Woah, hang on a sec. Your rings haven't had a chance to seat. Drive the motor for 500 miles, then check it.

When I built my Eclipse GSX motor, it was 8.5:1 and I got 150psi even, after 10 mins of running it in the garage. I sure hope your right.

1st off, check the compression on the other 5. Are they all right there together or is #1 way off @100 and the other 5 are at like 150?

Also, what compression ratio pistons are in it? 100psi is certainly low for a 12:1 NA motor, but if you've got an 8:1 motor with rings that haven't seated yet, then its probably close to what would be expected.

What kind of oil you running? Dino or synthetic?

I haven't had the nerve to check the others yet, but you are both right, I need to calm down and evaluate the situation (which I have since 5:00).

The pistons are 8.5:1 SRP's.

Dino oil.

I've also got real low vacuume. I havent hooked it up to a gauge, but if I pinch the FPR hose, the fuel pressure only raises about 5 psi.

Even though it runs now, it still missses sometimes and is still burning rich (NOTHING like before though). Im still gonna ditch the Black Beauties and get some Taylor wires. I've got an MSD 8367 Distributer on the way too. I was about to buy a MSD 6BTM also, till I began to think my engine is blown.

Thanks,
-Rob

 

[James Thomas]

Re: I'm super retarded, not like Rainman, like Forest.

I would like to thank everyone who offered so much help and advice on the problem I was having with my truck. The answer has been found.

Its me. Im stupid. That was/is the problem. Okay, well its part of the problem.

1: Early in my troubles my valve lash was out of adjustment. That was part of the issue kept it from running in the begining, with the stock chip and injectors

2: My coil Pick-up was bad. As soon as I replaced the Coil Pick-Up and reset the timing, my distributer lined up properly. Unfortunately the pick-up was the LAST thing I replaced (after injectors, chip, map, etc), so that was the reason #2 that hindered it from running in the begining and PART of what kept it from running after the Ultimate was put in.

3. This is why I'm and idiot. My ultimate was not seated completely in the Memcal holder. I thought I could cheat and keep the lock tabs intact. I was wrong. Today, I chopped up the left lock tab, Re-installed my ultimate, and it fired right up and idled right away...

"Right on!" You say, "No big deal, we all make mistakes sometimes?", right? Wrong. Since I ran it so many times pig ass rich, with black smoke and backfires and all, I either ended up washing the cylinder walls, or I burned a valve early on, while the valve lash was out of adjusment.

I Checked compression today on my fancy new 0 mile (driveway time only) engine after all this. 100psi in the #1 cyl. Fuct up. I didn't bother even checking the others, I was so dismayed. So, tomorrow, I guess I try to check the compression in the others and add oil to the cylinders to see if its the valve or the rings.... If its a burned valve (which I think isn't very likely), a fresh set of Vortecs are going on. If its the rings (more likely), out comes the engine and back into the shop to get a fresh hone and some new rings. I can only hope that if it is the rings, that it hasn't gouged up the walls to the point of needing to be bored. I REALLY dont want to have to put new pistons in it.

So when the engine comes back from the shop, it will be better than ever, sporting a new set of Vortecs, a Comp 412 cam, and EVERYTHING else electrical will be brand new. Should drop right in and fire right up this time.... NO WHAMMIES!

-Rob
:stupid:

Hey man, don't put a gun to your head yet. If I don't make at least a couple good boo boo's everyday before lunch I feel short changed for the day! Dito on the compression check of the other five cylinders, and the engine not being broken in. Also cranking speed and several other factors can falsly make a brand new engine have low cranking pressure. You would have to have dumped a ton of fuel and actually let it run a while to wash the cylinders that bad!

Double and triple check everything, cam / valve timing, ign. timing, rocker adjustment & the works. BTW what harmonic balancer are you using? Is is a stock balancer and is it new? If its the old stocker, check it real, real close because I have had many of the stock balancers seperate in the elastomer / rubber ring and the timing mark was off.... somtimes way off. There are a lot of things that can mask themselves as apperantly other problems.

Vacume leaks on a new engine build or crossed vacume connections are easy to over look. Even if you do have some difference between cylinders on the full compression test, if it's not really bad (like 30psi or more), then fire it and put several hundred miles on it any way. The engine is already together and I have had several engines with a spread in the cranking pressure until the rings fully seated. Also if you used "chrome" rings, it may take 1000 + miles depending on the actual cylinder hone finsh to break then in, molly sets usually only several hundred miles.

Point is...... calm down, step away form the weapon.... and impact wrench. Think about every little thing you might have missed, verify that all is correct and be methodical. Start at A and work to Z in order, don't jump around all over the place and back and forth.
____________________
James Thomas
Island Cycle & Performance
Marianas Motorsports

 

[RSpengler]

Re: I'm super retarded, not like Rainman, like Forest.

I tested the other cylinders today: cyl # 1 - 100psi, 2 - 120, 3 - 120, 4 - 115, 5 - 120, 6 - 100.

I also replaced my oil today, the old oil was fuel laden, and came out like water. I put new plugs in it, set the Ultimate to Valet (the only mode it will idle in), and let it run for about 15 minutes, cycling the RPM's up and down, I turned it off, busted out the compression tester and got 100psi in the #1 cylnder again. Then I shoved the tube of my oil gun as deep into the cylinder as it would go, touching the rear of the cylinder wall and squirted it three times. I then busted the compression tester back out and cranked it over again. The compression only went up 5psi?.?.?.? Burned valve?

Double and triple check everything, cam / valve timing, ign. timing, rocker adjustment & the works. BTW what harmonic balancer are you using? Is is a stock balancer and is it new? If its the old stocker, check it real, real close because I have had many of the stock balancers seperate in the elastomer / rubber ring and the timing mark was off.... somtimes way off. There are a lot of things that can mask themselves as apperantly other problems.

Im pretty sure the balancer is good, but tomorrow i'm going to triple check TDC, just to be sure.
It did occur to me though, that the car will only run semi-well when its in valet mode on the ultimate. I think the others seem have too much timing advance, so maybe the balancer is slipping?

On another note, when I was pulling my spark plugs, the #6 plug wire came uncrimped and the connector slipped out of the boot, still stuck to the spark plug...

My AFR randomly drops to .50 when I rev it up, accompanied by a sputtering / backfiring sound like the ignition is missing. If that were the case, wouldn't the AFR spike during a miss, due to unburned fuel? Right now, the only suspect I have for a miss in the ignition is those POS black beauties.

Vacume leaks on a new engine build or crossed vacume connections are easy to over look. Even if you do have some difference between cylinders on the full compression test, if it's not really bad (like 30psi or more), then fire it and put several hundred miles on it any way. The engine is already together and I have had several engines with a spread in the cranking pressure until the rings fully seated. Also if you used "chrome" rings, it may take 1000 + miles depending on the actual cylinder hone finsh to break then in, molly sets usually only several hundred miles.

The only vacuum lines I have are:
1: dedicated MAP line, from the back of the manifold.
2: dedicated FPR, from the front of the manifold.
3: Passenger PCV.
4: Vacuum resevoir.
I removed and blocked my EGR.

Thanks,
-Rob

 

[AUSyTyIN]

Re: I'm super retarded, not like Rainman, like Forest.

Break in the motor, run the compression test again :2cents:

 

[RSpengler]

Re: I'm super retarded, not like Rainman, like Forest.

Its hard to break the motor in when the thing hardly runs, It's just not drive-able in the condition it's in. It sputters, feels like the timing is SUPER retarded, and even though it boosts, it can hardly get out of its own way... Seriously, its the SLOWEST thing I've EVER driven. My Mazda 323 with a 110HP 4 banger would blow the doors off my truck in its current condition.

Something is still seriously wrong.

Got a new ECM and MSD distributer on the way, and Im going to order a set of Taylor wires to replace my junk ATR Black Beauties. Im going to buy a new TPS, CTS, and AIT sensor, just to get them out of the equation also. That way EVERY sensor AND the ECM will be new, along with EVERY ignition component and EVERY fuel delivery component. If that doesn't put it into a driveable condition, I dont know what I'm going to do. I guess, tear down and rebuild will be my only option.

-Rob

 

[berzerker]

Re: I'm super retarded, not like Rainman, like Forest.

Rob i know the feeling when sh!t dose'nt work perfect right after spending a shit load of money and time trying to get a new engine running tip top .but dont get discouraged just yet . i to had the same outcome after getting my new build fired. it turned out my dumb ass ordered low impendance injs. by mistake. i started pulling my hair out trying to find what the hell was wrong . but it finally came to me about the inj. one day , yanked the ecm out soldered in the inj. drivers and bam !!! truck ran perfect . so dont go yankin the engine half way apart just yet . suggestion you might check to make sure the cylinders are firing evenly. after running engine for a minute take a squirt bottle of water a spray the exhaust manifold port flanges and the water should sizzle and burn off pretty quickly . if you find that one cylinder stays colder the the others you most likely found your culprit for the truck running like crap . then ditermine your problem with that cyl. .. faulty ignition component , valve adjustment . good luck

 

[James Thomas]

Re: I'm super retarded, not like Rainman, like Forest.

Its hard to break the motor in when the thing hardly runs, It's just not drive-able in the condition it's in. It sputters, feels like the timing is SUPER retarded, and even though it boosts, it can hardly get out of its own way... Seriously, its the SLOWEST thing I've EVER driven. My Mazda 323 with a 110HP 4 banger would blow the doors off my truck in its current condition.

Something is still seriously wrong.

Got a new ECM and MSD distributer on the way, and Im going to order a set of Taylor wires to replace my junk ATR Black Beauties. Im going to buy a new TPS, CTS, and AIT sensor, just to get them out of the equation also. That way EVERY sensor AND the ECM will be new, along with EVERY ignition component and EVERY fuel delivery component. If that doesn't put it into a driveable condition, I dont know what I'm going to do. I guess, tear down and rebuild will be my only option.

-Rob

Rob I know it's a REAL B*%CH but........ Like the above post, triple check every thing short of pulling the engine first. He had a inj. driver mis-match, oop's but hey it happens and may not even be your fault. Some one may have sold or shipped you the wrong part / s but in his case if he had yanked the motor and torn it down, it would have cost more time trouble and fustration not to mention the money..... gaskets, lube ect. ans would not have solved the problem!

Do you have a GM FACTORY SERVICE MANUAL? If not get the complete set at www.helm.com, yes they are available and yea it's about $160.00 for the set or try e-bay but there is info, specs and diagrams that are damn near impossiable to find any where else. Chiltons and Haynes won't cut for these types of problems. Do you have data logging software? If not get it, you will need it any way! Then run the codes (you can do this at the ALDL without tools) and follow the trouble shooting steps 1by 1 in order! Use the data logger and get your data stream info and start comparing your info to the factory spec.

This is the only way to do it right and retain your sanity and bank account. Since you have or shortly will have all new sensors and an ecm I would think Vegas wouldn't give odds on those being a problem but I have had several bad sensors out of the box through the years, it does happen (this comes under triple check every thing!). Remember, it does no good to have all new sensors / ecm and have one or two bad connectors or wires.

Your cranking pressure may not be off as bad as you think. I just checked (the factory service manual for VIN Z) and the min. cranking pressure should not be less than 100 p.s.i. and this is for a engine well broken in and suspect of a compression problem. Also you are well within the 30% variance called for by the General. I agree that it is hard to break in the engine with the conditions you describe and 15 min. at no load won't do it, in fact if you do indeed have internal problems this may make it worse. Hold off on the extended runnin till you verify everything else.

This leads me to feel that you do indeed have another problem / problems. I'll bet a month of Sunday's that you got problems outside the pistons and cylinders. Get the books, get the tools and go step by step. BTW, not trying to slam ya or anything but make sure when you do the compression test that you pull the coil wire, hold the throttle wide open while cranking and crank till the needle stops or 30 seconds which ever happens first, but you knew that right?
_______________________
James Thomas
Island Cycle & Performance
Marianas Motorsports

 

[AUSyTyIN]

Re: I'm super retarded, not like Rainman, like Forest.

Get it running, then break it in. The motor isn't running like crap because of your low compression. It's a problem else-where. Most likely something small and stupid that we all could've missed.

 

[TYTILIDIE]

Re: I'm super retarded, not like Rainman, like Forest.

Rob is in Colo Spgs. Sounds like someone needs my heroic efforts. Dont worry man, Ill help you burry your shit.

 

[TYTILIDIE]

Re: I'm super retarded, not like Rainman, like Forest.

Woah, hang on a sec. Your rings haven't had a chance to seat. Drive the motor for 500 miles, then check it.

I have to say that I think this is a myth. To a degree anyway. Ive built about 7-8 motors and the first 3 I " broke in". After that I stopped doing the break in thing. I built a 10.5:1 comp 350 with a 286 Comp cam and prted heads. A mild build sure but I put this motor in my old Vette and it screamed. I beat on it right oout of the drive way. I put atleast 70K on this motor myself and ran into the guy that bought it from me last year a week ago. Hewas not impressed at all with with the interior repairs I made but was happy with the motor and trans. He has put 10k on the car since he bought it from me. I built this motor in 2000. Break ins are overrated IMO. I never broke in the TY motors either and the break down were not related in anyway to not doing so. Oil pick up tube fell off first tiem and second time machine shop dicked me on my crank.

 

[AUSyTyIN]

Re: I'm super retarded, not like Rainman, like Forest.

Rob is in Colo Spgs. Sounds like someone needs my heroic efforts. Dont worry man, Ill help you burry your shit.

Well hell, I didin't know that! If you guys need an extra hand, let me know :tup:

 

[AUSyTyIN]

Re: I'm super retarded, not like Rainman, like Forest.

I have to say that I think this is a myth. To a degree anyway. Ive built about 7-8 motors and the first 3 I " broke in". After that I stopped doing the break in thing. I built a 10.5:1 comp 350 with a 286 Comp cam and prted heads. A mild build sure but I put this motor in my old Vette and it screamed. I beat on it right oout of the drive way. I put atleast 70K on this motor myself and ran into the guy that bought it from me last year a week ago. Hewas not impressed at all with with the interior repairs I made but was happy with the motor and trans. He has put 10k on the car since he bought it from me. I built this motor in 2000. Break ins are overrated IMO. I never broke in the TY motors either and the break down were not related in anyway to not doing so. Oil pick up tube fell off first tiem and second time machine shop dicked me on my crank.

I agree to a point about the questionability about how to break in the motor, but it is a fact that once the motor is broken in, and the ring fully set the compression will increase

 

[leroy]

Re: I'm super retarded, not like Rainman, like Forest.

I think it is worthwhile to break in an engine on regular oil, instead of synthetic.

I agree with this guys theory on break-in: http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

Jim

 

[AUSyTyIN]

Re: I'm super retarded, not like Rainman, like Forest.

I think it is worthwhile to break in an engine on regular oil, instead of synthetic.

2nd on this one too

 

[TYTILIDIE]

Re: I'm super retarded, not like Rainman, like Forest.

I agree to a point about the questionability about how to break in the motor, but it is a fact that once the motor is broken in, and the ring fully set the compression will increase

I can agree with oyu on that I just dont really think its all bad to get on it til they do.

 

[James Thomas]

Re: I'm super retarded, not like Rainman, like Forest.

I agree to a point about the questionability about how to break in the motor, but it is a fact that once the motor is broken in, and the ring fully set the compression will increase

Dito, Dito Dito :tup:! Talk to any pro engine builder and he will tell you the same thing....
for a street engine. As for race only engines, that's a different story all together. They are built, honed and use ring packages that seat almost instanstly but also remember that this same type of prep and parts for a race build will usually not do well on the street 30,000 + miles later.
_______________________
James Thomas
Island Cycle & Performance
Marianas Motorsports

 

[James Thomas]

Re: I'm super retarded, not like Rainman, like Forest.

2nd on this one too

Major amounts of testing and dollars to do the testing 100% confirm this :tup: !
_____________________
James Thomas
Island Cycle & Performance
Marianas Motorsports