Manual Brake Options/Discussion
- Thread starter MikeRenz
- Start date
SY2932
Administrator
Re: Manual Brake Options/Discussion
Ok, the dimensions on the stock brake pedal arm are as follows. The pivot point on the arm is .910" tall including the "spacer" that is on the bottom. The spacer itself is .140" thick. The hole for the pin that holds the rod on the arm is .109" in diameter. This is drilled with a 7/64 drill .365" from the end of the pivot. However, .010" here isn't going to hurt one bit if you round it up to .375"...
You will need a 1/2 X 13 grade eight hex head bolt three inches long and two hardened nuts. You may be able to use a shorter bolt as long as the portion under the head that isn't threaded is about 3/4 of an inch long. As mentioned above, this bolt won't drop in the arm so you will need to tap it with a 1/2 X 13 tap. HTH's
Ok, the dimensions on the stock brake pedal arm are as follows. The pivot point on the arm is .910" tall including the "spacer" that is on the bottom. The spacer itself is .140" thick. The hole for the pin that holds the rod on the arm is .109" in diameter. This is drilled with a 7/64 drill .365" from the end of the pivot. However, .010" here isn't going to hurt one bit if you round it up to .375"...
You will need a 1/2 X 13 grade eight hex head bolt three inches long and two hardened nuts. You may be able to use a shorter bolt as long as the portion under the head that isn't threaded is about 3/4 of an inch long. As mentioned above, this bolt won't drop in the arm so you will need to tap it with a 1/2 X 13 tap. HTH's
Re: Manual Brake Options/Discussion
well i think this'll look nice once its all said and done.
obviously need to make a blockoff plate and then figure out the final rod length. Also my intentions are to mount the proportioning valve to the blockoff plate also to try to keep it as close to the firewall/out of sight as possible
well i think this'll look nice once its all said and done.
obviously need to make a blockoff plate and then figure out the final rod length. Also my intentions are to mount the proportioning valve to the blockoff plate also to try to keep it as close to the firewall/out of sight as possible
Syclone#2960
What ever it takes!!
Re: Manual Brake Options/Discussion
Mike how did this turn out for you? Are you happy with the braking?
Mike how did this turn out for you? Are you happy with the braking?
Re: Manual Brake Options/Discussion
i'm not happy with it...yet. I need to adjust the leverage point of the brake pedal - right now it takes way too much effort to stop. I also don't have my adjustable proportioning valve installed on it yet....and it's still the stock rear drums. At some point it'll get rear discs, adjusted bedal, and prop valve. It's on my list of things i need to do to the truck, but not super high up on the priority list right now unfortunately so i'm not sure how soon i'll get to it. Hopefully this winter, but we'll see.
As far as looks, it's sexy.
I think the resevoir looks great being all metal instead of an oem plastic one. The combination of manual brakes and manual steering gives the thing an odd feel, especially when it's go some power under the other pedal.
i'm not happy with it...yet. I need to adjust the leverage point of the brake pedal - right now it takes way too much effort to stop. I also don't have my adjustable proportioning valve installed on it yet....and it's still the stock rear drums. At some point it'll get rear discs, adjusted bedal, and prop valve. It's on my list of things i need to do to the truck, but not super high up on the priority list right now unfortunately so i'm not sure how soon i'll get to it. Hopefully this winter, but we'll see.
As far as looks, it's sexy.
I think the resevoir looks great being all metal instead of an oem plastic one. The combination of manual brakes and manual steering gives the thing an odd feel, especially when it's go some power under the other pedal.
Syclone#2960
What ever it takes!!
Re: Manual Brake Options/Discussion
I had to remove my booster yesterday to help clear my new headers...might try a smaller booster instead.
Thanks for the update.
I had to remove my booster yesterday to help clear my new headers...might try a smaller booster instead.
Thanks for the update.
Syclone#2960
What ever it takes!!
Re: Manual Brake Options/Discussion
Bruce,
Thanks for your inquiry.
I don't know if that master cylinder has a pushrod retention hole built into the master cylinder piston. If it does, you can purchase the plate without the retention cup. If it does not, you will need the plate with the retention cup. But the plate with the retention cup will work with all master cylinders EXCEPT for the stock step bore master cylinders. Most stock GM master cylinders of the 80s and 90s do not have a retention hole to retain the pushrod.
In my opinion, the master cylinder you listed below is too large and your pedal will be super hard with no pressure getting to the calipers. Bigger is not better with master cylinders. If you have an all wheel drive syclone, the front caliper is only 2.5" in diameter (same diameter as 2wd version), but I do not know if it is a low drag caliper and I do not know if it the same caliper as a 2wd caliper. If it is a low drag caliper, it will require a step bore master cylinder. Please do an internet search on this step bore master cylinders and low drag calipers. A step bore master cylinder will not work with the plate with the retention cup because the housing is too large to fit within the retention cup.
That being said, for the bore size of the front calipers, a 7/8" strait bore master cylinder would be best if you can determine if the AWD calipers on the front are NOT low drag calipers. I believe Wilwood makes the same master cylinde you mentioned below if a 7/8" bore. If you have a 2wd sonoma, you can convert to a non low drag caliper from US brake (new stock type castings that are not low drag) and a Wilwood aluminum "metric" caliper. Both of these are direct replacements for a 2WD Sonoma. The AWD and 4WD calipers MAY NOT be the same caliper. WWW.SPEEDWAYMOTORS.COM seems to have the best prices for these two items
Also the pushrod I offer has a head on the tip to retain it in the retention cup and not able to pull out of the back of the retention cup. If you choose a master cylinder with a retention hole in the master cylinder, you can cut this head off and round off the end OR let me know when you order and I can do it for you.
Please let me know if you have additional questions after all the information I have given you above.
David Schultz
www.manualbrakes.com
832-264-55667
Bruce,
Thanks for your inquiry.
I don't know if that master cylinder has a pushrod retention hole built into the master cylinder piston. If it does, you can purchase the plate without the retention cup. If it does not, you will need the plate with the retention cup. But the plate with the retention cup will work with all master cylinders EXCEPT for the stock step bore master cylinders. Most stock GM master cylinders of the 80s and 90s do not have a retention hole to retain the pushrod.
In my opinion, the master cylinder you listed below is too large and your pedal will be super hard with no pressure getting to the calipers. Bigger is not better with master cylinders. If you have an all wheel drive syclone, the front caliper is only 2.5" in diameter (same diameter as 2wd version), but I do not know if it is a low drag caliper and I do not know if it the same caliper as a 2wd caliper. If it is a low drag caliper, it will require a step bore master cylinder. Please do an internet search on this step bore master cylinders and low drag calipers. A step bore master cylinder will not work with the plate with the retention cup because the housing is too large to fit within the retention cup.
That being said, for the bore size of the front calipers, a 7/8" strait bore master cylinder would be best if you can determine if the AWD calipers on the front are NOT low drag calipers. I believe Wilwood makes the same master cylinde you mentioned below if a 7/8" bore. If you have a 2wd sonoma, you can convert to a non low drag caliper from US brake (new stock type castings that are not low drag) and a Wilwood aluminum "metric" caliper. Both of these are direct replacements for a 2WD Sonoma. The AWD and 4WD calipers MAY NOT be the same caliper. WWW.SPEEDWAYMOTORS.COM seems to have the best prices for these two items
Also the pushrod I offer has a head on the tip to retain it in the retention cup and not able to pull out of the back of the retention cup. If you choose a master cylinder with a retention hole in the master cylinder, you can cut this head off and round off the end OR let me know when you order and I can do it for you.
Please let me know if you have additional questions after all the information I have given you above.
David Schultz
www.manualbrakes.com
832-264-55667
Syclone#2960
What ever it takes!!
Re: Manual Brake Options/Discussion
Thank you for the inquiry and use of Wilwood Disc Brakes. Are you running manual or power brakes? If power brakes, how much vacuum are you running to the booster at idle? For manual brakes (no booster), a 6:1 pedal ratio is the minimum we recommend. http://www.wilwood.com/TechTip/TechPedalTip.aspx
You have two options for master cylinders, if you like a good pedal modulation (travel) and the car is mostly street, the 7/8" bore Aluminum tandem master cylinder will be a good choice. This will provide you with about 1000 psi of pressure at the calipers with 100 pounds of leg effort. The pedal will travel about 1/3 before it firms up. http://www.wilwood.com/Search/PartNoSearch.aspx?itemno=9439
A 1 inch bore is also usable. This will stiffen up the pedal, making about 800 psi under the same leg effort. http://www.wilwood.com/Search/PartNoSearch.aspx?itemno=8555
Regards, Wilwood Disc Brakes
Thank you for the inquiry and use of Wilwood Disc Brakes. Are you running manual or power brakes? If power brakes, how much vacuum are you running to the booster at idle? For manual brakes (no booster), a 6:1 pedal ratio is the minimum we recommend. http://www.wilwood.com/TechTip/TechPedalTip.aspx
RealFastV6
@jb_and_his_coffee
Re: Manual Brake Options/Discussion
Mike, I've lost track - do you have LS1 front Calipers on the truck?
Mike, I've lost track - do you have LS1 front Calipers on the truck?
RealFastV6
@jb_and_his_coffee
Re: Manual Brake Options/Discussion
Do the Baer calipers require so much fluid that a >1" bore MC was necessary?
With LS1 calipers, the ideal size seems to be anywhere from 7/8" to a max of 1" (depending who you talk to).
The larger the MC bore, the higher and harder the pedal will be.
Do the Baer calipers require so much fluid that a >1" bore MC was necessary?
With LS1 calipers, the ideal size seems to be anywhere from 7/8" to a max of 1" (depending who you talk to).
The larger the MC bore, the higher and harder the pedal will be.
bezerk
New member
Re: Manual Brake Options/Discussion
Well ABS suck on these truck anyway, i have been in a few situations where the ABS kicked it where it shouldn't kick in. scary shit!
on the powersteering removal... i've restored a 52 chevy and put a smaller size steeering wheel in it as well as wider tires in front.....no powersteering sucks, and really in all fact the truck is a show truck....but it is also because of the effort to move the bitch around in corners.
u sure you aint missing the powersteering?
Well ABS suck on these truck anyway, i have been in a few situations where the ABS kicked it where it shouldn't kick in. scary shit!
on the powersteering removal... i've restored a 52 chevy and put a smaller size steeering wheel in it as well as wider tires in front.....no powersteering sucks, and really in all fact the truck is a show truck....but it is also because of the effort to move the bitch around in corners.
u sure you aint missing the powersteering?
Syclone#2960
What ever it takes!!
Re: Manual Brake Options/Discussion
The existing bolt hole size on the sy brake pedal is 7/16".
The rod length from back plate to eye hole needs to be no longer then 7".
I did not see the need to go and find a "manual brake pedal" from a yard.
Unless Im missing something.
The existing bolt hole size on the sy brake pedal is 7/16".
The rod length from back plate to eye hole needs to be no longer then 7".
I did not see the need to go and find a "manual brake pedal" from a yard.
Unless Im missing something.
Last edited:
Re: Manual Brake Options/Discussion
Interesting thread. To bad there was a lot of bad info on bore size.
For the record, a smaller master cylinder bore gives you less pressure and more pedal travel.
A larger bore size gets you more pressure and less travel.
Moving the pivot up gets you more travel and less pressure.
The size of the caliper bore is also important, and it could be changed instead of the master cylinder bore size, but here it works the other way.
Larger caliper bore gives you less pressure at the pedal and more travel. A smaller bore size gives you more pressure and less travel.
I personally think there is easily a combination out there that would provide good pedal travel, good pedal pressure, and yet good stopping. Of note, its a common race argument regarding brakes, generally its felt that a long pedal travel gives you a better ability to modulate the brakes. Unfortunately most think quick brakes with lots of stopping with little travel 'feels' better. BTW, I am a fan of manual brakes, a good long travel with a good linear modulation is my preferred brake setup.
BTW, who was whineing about manual steering? A proper ratio box fixes that, although 3 point turns sure give you a workout. I drove a manual steering s-10 for a while and would love to have one again. The 18:1 ratio did make parking a bugger, but the feel was excellent in all other conditions.
Interesting thread. To bad there was a lot of bad info on bore size.
For the record, a smaller master cylinder bore gives you less pressure and more pedal travel.
A larger bore size gets you more pressure and less travel.
Moving the pivot up gets you more travel and less pressure.
The size of the caliper bore is also important, and it could be changed instead of the master cylinder bore size, but here it works the other way.
Larger caliper bore gives you less pressure at the pedal and more travel. A smaller bore size gives you more pressure and less travel.
I personally think there is easily a combination out there that would provide good pedal travel, good pedal pressure, and yet good stopping. Of note, its a common race argument regarding brakes, generally its felt that a long pedal travel gives you a better ability to modulate the brakes. Unfortunately most think quick brakes with lots of stopping with little travel 'feels' better. BTW, I am a fan of manual brakes, a good long travel with a good linear modulation is my preferred brake setup.
BTW, who was whineing about manual steering? A proper ratio box fixes that, although 3 point turns sure give you a workout. I drove a manual steering s-10 for a while and would love to have one again. The 18:1 ratio did make parking a bugger, but the feel was excellent in all other conditions.
Re: Manual Brake Options/Discussion
But it gives you more leverage, making it easier to exert more travel/pressure. So there is a happy medium. So if you're using a larger bore master it makes sense to change your pedal geometry since you don't need as much travel relative to the master cylinder.
I can tell you that the way my truck is setup right now, it's a handful to drive in stop and go traffic. For normal braking it's ok, but I typically drive two footed at all times. It's also requires a LOT of effort to attempt a boosted launch. So much that I never bother. I'm toying with the idea of going back to vacuum assisted brakes actually. Not sure what i'll do yet. But as is, I would not let anyone else really drive my truck since it's so different from 'normal'.
But it gives you more leverage, making it easier to exert more travel/pressure. So there is a happy medium. So if you're using a larger bore master it makes sense to change your pedal geometry since you don't need as much travel relative to the master cylinder.
I can tell you that the way my truck is setup right now, it's a handful to drive in stop and go traffic. For normal braking it's ok, but I typically drive two footed at all times. It's also requires a LOT of effort to attempt a boosted launch. So much that I never bother. I'm toying with the idea of going back to vacuum assisted brakes actually. Not sure what i'll do yet. But as is, I would not let anyone else really drive my truck since it's so different from 'normal'.
It might have been me. I hate my manual steering box - it has a huge dead spot right in the middle...so when you're driving straight, the steering wheel can move side to side by a good inch of 2 in either direction. Exactly the opposite feeling of what I was going for. Having to do K turns for anything sharper than a 90 degree turn sucks. I might have just chosen the wrong manual box, but it sure doesn't make me like manual steering. It's got a lot of road feedback under spirited driving...but it's a workout at all times, even at speed. So between the manual steering and manual brakes on my truck, it's a workout to drive it...and pretty tiring on a long trip. If I was just wanting it as a once in a while cruiser or strip only, I'd leave it as is. But I want to drive my truck often, and would like my wife to be able to drive it too...but she's definitely not strong enough to stop the truck or turn at slow speeds.
Syclone#2960
What ever it takes!!
Re: Manual Brake Options/Discussion
looks over performance...
looks over performance...
Re: Manual Brake Options/Discussion
Sorry, that is what I was saying about moving the pivot. By moving the pivot up you get an easier pedal, but the trade off is more travel of the pedal (everything else being the same). I guess we are saying the same thing. That said, I wouldn't go with a master cylinder that has a larger bore than stock if I'm removing power brakes. You need the 'mechanical' advantage a smaller bore gets you.if the caliper bores are the same as they were before. If you don't change bore size and drop the power brakes it would be like when the truck is off. Changing the pivot helps, but I wouldn't think it would be enough.
Then again, if your system is really 'tight' with stainless hoses and little to no slop in the calipers it would be better to run a big bore master cylinder and a pivot very close to the main pivot. Reason being that you will develop the highest line pressures that way, but the short pivot will have very little tolerance for 'slop'
As for your steering box. Have you tried adjusting the preload? I'm going to assume it has a preload adjustment. On the power boxes it has a HUGE effect on the on-center feel. And switching around boxes can help, you might need an 18:1 or 20:1. You might have a 16:1 in there. It should not be a big workout. Every manual steering car I have driven was no harder than a power steering box, except at parking lot speeds or lower. And then it was just annoying, not really hard.
Alignment and tight parts can make a very big difference in on-center feel as well.
Sorry, that is what I was saying about moving the pivot. By moving the pivot up you get an easier pedal, but the trade off is more travel of the pedal (everything else being the same). I guess we are saying the same thing. That said, I wouldn't go with a master cylinder that has a larger bore than stock if I'm removing power brakes. You need the 'mechanical' advantage a smaller bore gets you.if the caliper bores are the same as they were before. If you don't change bore size and drop the power brakes it would be like when the truck is off. Changing the pivot helps, but I wouldn't think it would be enough.
Then again, if your system is really 'tight' with stainless hoses and little to no slop in the calipers it would be better to run a big bore master cylinder and a pivot very close to the main pivot. Reason being that you will develop the highest line pressures that way, but the short pivot will have very little tolerance for 'slop'
As for your steering box. Have you tried adjusting the preload? I'm going to assume it has a preload adjustment. On the power boxes it has a HUGE effect on the on-center feel. And switching around boxes can help, you might need an 18:1 or 20:1. You might have a 16:1 in there. It should not be a big workout. Every manual steering car I have driven was no harder than a power steering box, except at parking lot speeds or lower. And then it was just annoying, not really hard.
Alignment and tight parts can make a very big difference in on-center feel as well.
midnightbluS10
Banned
Re: Manual Brake Options/Discussion
IIRC, someone in the JSM crew did a comparison. Or maybe it was Mike Hood.
Anyone else remember the thread I'm referring to?
Edit: Nevermind. Just noticed you said power vs NON-POWER. Oh well. Here's that thread anyways.
http://www.syty.net/forums/showthread.php?t=48364&highlight=Ls1+stopping+distance
IIRC, someone in the JSM crew did a comparison. Or maybe it was Mike Hood.
Anyone else remember the thread I'm referring to?
Edit: Nevermind. Just noticed you said power vs NON-POWER. Oh well. Here's that thread anyways.
http://www.syty.net/forums/showthread.php?t=48364&highlight=Ls1+stopping+distance