Remove checkball and retainer or just checkball?

[mrweelr]

I've got a sweet new RPM race trans sitting in my garage. I noticed the checkball and retainer are still in the input shaft. The service manual says it's OK to remove just the checkball, but to leave the retainer in the input shaft. Some folks in here have removed both...what's the deal with the retainer? Should I remove just the ball or both? I want firm TC lockups, but no side-effects if there are any. Any suggestions?

 

[mrweelr]

Re: Remove checkball and retainer or just checkball?

Oh yeah, I have the #4 screw extractor and 3/8" drift punch to do it properly. Just need to know which way to proceed.

 

[SY2455]

Re: Remove checkball and retainer or just checkball?

I've got a sweet new RPM race trans sitting in my garage. I noticed the checkball and retainer are still in the input shaft. The service manual says it's OK to remove just the checkball, but to leave the retainer in the input shaft. Some folks in here have removed both...what's the deal with the retainer? Should I remove just the ball or both? I want firm TC lockups, but no side-effects if there are any. Any suggestions?

Before you do anything, why don't you call Mike at RPM & ask him.

 

[mrweelr]

Re: Remove checkball and retainer or just checkball?

Just did, thanks.

 

[Loeryder]

Re: Remove checkball and retainer or just checkball?

I removed both in my old trans.
Haven't checked the new one yet, but will be swapping them in the coming weeks.

The idea of leaving the retainer I think is to somewhat dampen the TC apply.
With nothing in there the apply is pretty harsh.
Especially at a part throttle just cruising along in traffic and BANG the TC locks up, feels like another gear.

If I had the choice to do again I wouldn't risk the shock shifting to the other valuable parts of my trans. These things shift hard enough. :tup: :2cents:

 

[Crimson93Ty]

Re: Remove checkball and retainer or just checkball?

I'd leave it in there. There's a lot of force on the input shaft during lockup. Especially if you manually lock up the TCC when racing. As soon as 2nd oil hits the passage, the fluid also hits the TCC circuit and will immediately lock up the converter. Massive syty 1-2 shift with undampened converter clutch apply on top of it really puts a hurtin on the input shaft. 700 input input shafts are drilled full of holes. Your just asking to break it :tdown: :2cents:
I saw some stuff in the diy-efi archives where a fellow named Barry Tisdale was working on a setup where he had a swich at the end of the 2nd apply valve and would try to delay 2nd gear lockup ever so slightly so he didn't get the bog and reduce stress on the trans while at the same time removing the metering check ball and retainer from the end of the input shaft. I couldn't find anything saying if he ever got it to work or not.

What did RPM tell you?

 

[mrweelr]

Re: Remove checkball and retainer or just checkball?

Here is Mike's reply:

"My trans guy said that mod would make it shift into lockup harder, and if
you are to do it you can remove both the checkball and retainer.. HE said we
usually keep them in though"

I can't decide what to do. Some of you guys say pull them both out, some say leave both in. What's the general consensus? Is it like a night and day difference?

 

[Crimson93Ty]

Re: Remove checkball and retainer or just checkball?

I've driven them both ways. If your just driving down the road, especially with the 4-3 descreet valve in there and working, it is flat frigging annoying. Going up a slight grade and the truck shifts from 4th to 3rd, thud thud. Truck jerks when it locks up at 32 mph and then hysteresis makes it unlock, thud thud, etc. I'd leave it in. RPM built the trans to beat on and left that ball in there to prevent the shock to the input shaft on lockup. Your trans also has lockup at WOT at about 70mph. It's really hard on it. If RPM says it's ok and you don't mind the aggrivation, go for it. If you drive it daily though, I wouldn't do it if it were mine :2cents: Ultimately it's your truck. If anyone lives around you that has it removed, go for a drive in it and play with it a little at part throttle cruising and slight increases and decreases in speed and see if you can tolerate it or not.

 

[mrweelr]

Re: Remove checkball and retainer or just checkball?

Crimson - thanks for your input on this...now that's what I can an explanation! My Sy is a daily driver, so if it drives clunky with the checkball removed, then that's probably not the direction I want to go in. Maybe some others will chime in on this and offer their $.02. As it stands, I'm not going to remove it, unless there's a really good reason to.

 

[nightdiver]

Re: Remove checkball and retainer or just checkball?

I've driven them both ways. If your just driving down the road, especially with the 4-3 descreet valve in there and working, it is flat frigging annoying. Going up a slight grade and the truck shifts from 4th to 3rd, thud thud. Truck jerks when it locks up at 32 mph and then hysteresis makes it unlock, thud thud, etc. I'd leave it in. RPM built the trans to beat on and left that ball in there to prevent the shock to the input shaft on lockup. Your trans also has lockup at WOT at about 70mph. It's really hard on it. If RPM says it's ok and you don't mind the aggrivation, go for it. If you drive it daily though, I wouldn't do it if it were mine :2cents: Ultimately it's your truck. If anyone lives around you that has it removed, go for a drive in it and play with it a little at part throttle cruising and slight increases and decreases in speed and see if you can tolerate it or not.

Who are you man....i read your posts and they are so right.
Very well spoken. Nice to see people like you here

 

[myclone]

Re: Remove checkball and retainer or just checkball?

My Sy is a daily driver, so if it drives clunky with the checkball removed, then that's probably not the direction I want to go in.

Leave it in if hard TCC apply is not what youre after.

 

[supersports10]

Re: Remove checkball and retainer or just checkball?

i have had mine out in my jimmy for a month and 1/2 now, and i liked it, you could feel if the tcc was loced or unlocked.

wasn't clunky, or annoying, ......i liked it.

hey 93 crimsion ty, where are you from??????

 

[Crimson93Ty]

Re: Remove checkball and retainer or just checkball?

It depends. Most of the time Ky. Sometimes Ohio.
Yeah, SS, I understand where your coming from. Some guys like it, but it depends on where you live and what your roads are like, and personal preference. If you have a lot of hills around the area you live in, there will be a LOT of TCC apply. If you live out in Nevada where it's flat, no big deal. There is a lot of personal preference. Some guys you can't make it shift hard enough, some guys like soft part throttle shifts with hard full throttle shifts, etc. My wife hated it. I hated it. A lot of unnecessary banging on a daily driver. There are accumulators to take the shock of every gear change but there is NO accumulator to soften TCC apply. Only thing that could be done is slow the rate the fluid applies it. You have to drop the trans though to undo that mod if you don't like it. It's worth driving someone elses truck to see if you like it first. :2cents:

 

[jwaller]

Re: Remove checkball and retainer or just checkball?

stock TC's have a spring damper in the hub section to dampen the TCC lockup. thats why it's not as noticeable in them as it is in aftermarket converters. I take them(ball and cup) out of all my builds but my customers like the go faster harder shifting feeling. depending on the conv I usually do a chip change so that your non wot lockups arent so low and it doesnt cause a lug in low rpm,mph operation.

 

[Crimson93Ty]

Re: Remove checkball and retainer or just checkball?

Cool. Never had heard of the damper in the converter before. Do you just raise the minimum MPH lockup or do you change the hysteresis as well? Is there a minimum lockup you've found that works best? I've spread the hysteresis pair out a little before to prevent it from locking back up so fast. That quick on and off again crap is what annoys me. It's not the lockup itself.

 

[ItsMyTy]

Re: Remove checkball and retainer or just checkball?

my truck has all these mods, non dampened TCC also

i modified the code in my chip to apply WOT TC lockup at 100mph.
Also raised part throttle lockup to about 60mph. This gets rid of the lugging engine feeling at around 40-55 mph, and no boost drop (with the PTE internal)at WOT, 3-4 shift w/TCC locked around 85 mph.

I know some mph and ET can be gained at the track by locking the converter in 2nd gear, but I'd rather keep the RPM up, boost PSI stable, and less shock on the transmission by keeping the converter unlocked until a sufficient RPM.

part throttle driving around town is nice and smooth with the TCC unlocked, (keep in mind I have a 28000 gvwr B&M cooler), there's less stress on the drivetrain, WOT shifts are very firm and now the RPMs stay way up there where the engine is making horsepower.

if you're reading this and wondering what I did to modify the WOT TCC lock speed to above 70mph, well.. MPH/VSS is only used by the ECU to control TCC lockup speed in my truck, so I skewed the VSS pulses per mile reading by a certain percentage to raise the WOT lockup by 30mph.

 

[Wes]

Re: Remove checkball and retainer or just checkball?

Brian Hartman told me if your converter is stock or so-so then just take out the ball, but if you have a good quality converter you can take them both out. I took both out when I built my friend's tranny (with a billet converter) and it's worked fine.

 

[mrweelr]

Re: Remove checkball and retainer or just checkball?

The ATSG manual says on page 69, "For HEAVY DUTY APPLICATIONS ONLY, the BALL ONLY, can be left out of the retainer, for a firmer converter clutch apply. DO NOT leave the retainer out of the turbine shaft, the BALL ONLY can be omitted."

I wonder what the reasoning is for leaving the retainer in there? The way I drive would definitely constitute a "heavy duty application," he he. Maybe I'll end up removing just the ball. Want to hear from some more folks before I decide, though.

 

[SY2932]

Re: Remove checkball and retainer or just checkball?

Yup:

I talked to a friend of a friend that rebuilt transmissions for forty years the other day regarding this. However, he lost his vision around the time the THM-700R4 came out (reason he stopped rebuilding transmisssions and had to close shop) . So, he wasn't able to comment on the reasoning behind this modification.

 

[jwaller]

Re: Remove checkball and retainer or just checkball?

Cool. Never had heard of the damper in the converter before. Do you just raise the minimum MPH lockup or do you change the hysteresis as well? Is there a minimum lockup you've found that works best? I've spread the hysteresis pair out a little before to prevent it from locking back up so fast. That quick on and off again crap is what annoys me. It's not the lockup itself.

yes it's in there believe me. thats why the 9/11 has a much more defined lockup than does a stock tc. I normally raise part throttle speed to 45-46 and leave the hystersis alone. from my experimenting(and those much better at ecm modding than I) you cannot alter the WOT speeds even though you can change the numebers around. it just doesn't work. you can however change the part throttle speeds which will take care of any issues you may be having.