Engine flatlines/jumps

Aeroking

e.i.
I've been trying to solve this problem for sometime now.

Problem: In 3rd gear with the truck at full boost, the RPMs climb to 4000~4200 and stop. The RPMs hang at 4200, then drop to 3800, then bounce back to 4500 and sticks, then jump to 5000 (not climb to 5000, jumps to 5000) and continue climbing smoothly to 6000. Only in 3rd gear under a load. The power doesnt gradually fall off, it just hits a wall at 4200, and once it shifts to OD, the front end comes back up and it takes off again. But from about 90mph to 100mph it takes about 8-10 seconds :tdown:. Its not a tach problem, cause the datalog confirms the jumps in RPMs.

Solutions i have tried:

- Possible ignition issue. Replaced, the plugs and gapped to .028 (UR5s). MSD coil. Taylor 8.8 wires. Just rebuilt the distributor yesterday with a new pickup coil, and a new (good working) ignition module. The truck runs 18* at low boost, and 23* in high boost with meth. There's no ignition breakup, timing is solid up through the stumble, no knock.

- Transmission slipping. Its not, under light throttle eash gear is smooth. Trans temps stay around 120* during spirited driving. 3rd gear continues smooth once the stumble quits. Its a 700R4 built by a world class shop. 3400 9/11 converter. It locks up, and stays locked.

- Valves floating. The springs are rated for a higher lift then the cam. The valve guides tops look clean, so nothing it bottoming out. The seat pressure is well matched for the ramp of the cam. And again, the motor will rev clear to 6000, just not under load (in 3rd gear).

- Tuning. I've set my fuel and spark cutoff for 6200, and again, it'll rev clean to 6000.

- Airflow. I'm running a 4" cobra cutdown to fit my cramped enginebay. I'm running the stock IC, stock TB, and stock manifolds. Ported L35s with big valves. 72mm with a 3" exhaust. Boost is rock solid through the RPM stumble. I've tried removing the Cobra, thinking it was sucking closed, it wasnt, it takes alot of muscle to collapse the 4" cobra. The cam is a custom grind with a high powerband and a peak somewhere around 5000~5500, so i'm barely into the powerband when the engine stumbles.

- Fuel. I'm running twin intank HP Walbros, with plenty of pressure, and flow. 65# siemens injectors, at 10.8 AFR. Duty cycle ranges from 70-80%. I've run the truck without the methanol, thinking perhaps i was washing the plugs out, no good, it still stumbles.

Any ideas would be appreciated. I can provide datalogs, or a video of the dash. I've run out of options and ideas. Engine and transmission have roughly 3000 miles on them, and this problem has plagued the truck since the rebuild.
 

WyoSyclone

Active member
Re: Engine flatlines/jumps

I've been trying to solve this problem for sometime now.

Problem: In 3rd gear with the truck at full boost, the RPMs climb to 4000~4200 and stop. The RPMs hang at 4200, then drop to 3800, then bounce back to 4500 and sticks, then jump to 5000 (not climb to 5000, jumps to 5000) and continue climbing smoothly to 6000. Only in 3rd gear under a load. The power doesnt gradually fall off, it just hits a wall at 4200, and once it shifts to OD, the front end comes back up and it takes off again. But from about 90mph to 100mph it takes about 8-10 seconds :tdown:. Its not a tach problem, cause the datalog confirms the jumps in RPMs.

Solutions i have tried:

- Possible ignition issue. Replaced, the plugs and gapped to .028 (UR5s). MSD coil. Taylor 8.8 wires. Just rebuilt the distributor yesterday with a new pickup coil, and a new (good working) ignition module. The truck runs 18* at low boost, and 23* in high boost with meth. There's no ignition breakup, timing is solid up through the stumble, no knock.

- Transmission slipping. Its not, under light throttle eash gear is smooth. Trans temps stay around 120* during spirited driving. 3rd gear continues smooth once the stumble quits. Its a 700R4 built by a world class shop. 3400 9/11 converter. It locks up, and stays locked.

- Valves floating. The springs are rated for a higher lift then the cam. The valve guides tops look clean, so nothing it bottoming out. The seat pressure is well matched for the ramp of the cam. And again, the motor will rev clear to 6000, just not under load (in 3rd gear).

- Tuning. I've set my fuel and spark cutoff for 6200, and again, it'll rev clean to 6000.

- Airflow. I'm running a 4" cobra cutdown to fit my cramped enginebay. I'm running the stock IC, stock TB, and stock manifolds. Ported L35s with big valves. 72mm with a 3" exhaust. Boost is rock solid through the RPM stumble. I've tried removing the Cobra, thinking it was sucking closed, it wasnt, it takes alot of muscle to collapse the 4" cobra. The cam is a custom grind with a high powerband and a peak somewhere around 5000~5500, so i'm barely into the powerband when the engine stumbles.

- Fuel. I'm running twin intank HP Walbros, with plenty of pressure, and flow. 65# siemens injectors, at 10.8 AFR. Duty cycle ranges from 70-80%. I've run the truck without the methanol, thinking perhaps i was washing the plugs out, no good, it still stumbles.

Any ideas would be appreciated. I can provide datalogs, or a video of the dash. I've run out of options and ideas. Engine and transmission have roughly 3000 miles on them, and this problem has plagued the truck since the rebuild.

Hey Brandon,
When the truck hits the wall at 4200 and then drops to 3800 does it sound like the engine is laboring, or does it just lose rpm? If the boost is steady as you say, I would think that would rule out the tranny, as an additional load would seem to make the boost rise. Are you running open or closed loop? I would look at WGDC during those transitions and see if it is trying to adjust boost to the load. If WGDC is varying with the RPM changes I would think it could point to a tranny/converter issue ?? I haven't been to the Code59 site to see what you posted there, but I see here where you've tried it with the meth not spraying.
What does the voltage in DM show during these fluctuations?
 

turboj91

New member
Re: Engine flatlines/jumps

Brandon,
Exactly how closely are you able to watch fueling. Specifically are there any pressure changes when the problems occur? I see your duty cycles appear fine but maybe pressure drops lean it out for a second or two. Also are there any timing changes at the "problem time"? Do you have either an EGT gauge or an AFR gauge and if so, do either change?
 

UR50SLO

V6+2=LSXCamaro
Re: Engine flatlines/jumps

Could you send me over your Code59 file?

Sounds like a fuel problem since it's not breaking up over 10psi.

~Scott
 

Aeroking

e.i.
Re: Engine flatlines/jumps

Good job doing that run on a 'closed circuit'.......
Kind of hard to tell just looking at the dash. One thing I noticed is that the turbo seems to be spooling pretty consistently... not real big variations that I could hear.... are you sure you're just not looking at a torque converter lock up? Maybe try locking the converter and repeat the test.

yea, the closed circuit had some heavy traffic. The scanner shows the converter locked. but i have some spare switches on the dash, i'll run one for the lockup and try it out tomorrow.

It shifts different everytime i drive it. The 5psi low boost seemed to be the smoothest, but hell at 5psi, the truck felt stock. I'm gonna call the trans builder tomorrow, see if he has any ideas.



Could you send me over your Code59 file?

Sounds like a fuel problem since it's not breaking up over 10psi.

~Scott

http://www.code59.org/images/fbfiles/files/Aerotune7_16.zip

maybe put a fuel pressure gauge on it and see if its linear with the boost?
 
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BoostedSUV

Active member
Re: Engine flatlines/jumps

I just watched the video and it's hard to tell but it looks like a tach/RPM signal issue. I can't really hear any stumble, but you can hear it lay over. Your tach and the ECU get the same RPM signal. So DM will read what ever RPM the tach does because the same RPM signal goes to the ECU. I have an issue with my truck when I'm cranking it to start the RPMs will read 6500 for some reason and the ECU will dump fuel as if it was really at those RPMs. Mind you I'm cranking the truck over to start it, its not even running yet! It just seems odd the tach would drop back like, its very sudden and not gradual... What I'm thinking is that the Tach/ecu is getting a false RPM signal and that is what is causing the truck to lay over? I could be way off on this but it's a thought....
 

sy#2716

SyTy 4 Life
Re: Engine flatlines/jumps

It could be that cobra elbow i know that serveral people have had problems with them deforming and causing it to block the inlet of the turbo.
 

turbodig

Active member
Re: Engine flatlines/jumps

What happens if, without the alky, you do some boost steps with good gas.. like, 12, 15, 18, 20.
Find the place the breakup starts.

Might also check your voltage to the coil... weak coil voltage can do things like this. Is the coil new recently?

Loose/misaligned distributor-spark scatter?

Have you tried pulling timing in the effected area? Adding timing?

It's odd that it's RPM specific, but these are the things I'd do first. There will be plenty of brains/ears on hand at Nats...
 

turbodig

Active member
Re: Engine flatlines/jumps

maybe put a fuel pressure gauge on it and see if its linear with the boost?

That's a good thought too. You should see that on the wide-band, but it would be good to know that you're getting stable fuel pressure.
 

Aeroking

e.i.
Re: Engine flatlines/jumps

yea, the blaster coil is 1 week old. I have 2 stock coils i was alternating between with no luck. I've tried multiple sets of plugs with varying gaps. Taylor wires and Accell cap/rotor.

Last night i reset my wastegate duty cycle for 10psi, i'm going to give it a run later tonight. I'm also going to try part throttle, leaving the truck in 3rd. I'll need a long stretch of road to get to 100mph at part throttle, i'll see what i got.

I've run it without the methanol, and with, and it shows no change between the 2 (during this i also cut the timing from 22* down to 15* since there was no meth).

I'm definitely not collapsing the Cobra elbow, Kenne Bell would s%#t their pants looking at my 4" cold air intake. So its getting plenty of air. Whether the stock TB, and stock intake can keep the air moving, i'm not sure.

Also for Nats, i'll have to ask around if anyone has a MSD box i could try while i'm down in BG.
 

Aeroking

e.i.
Re: Engine flatlines/jumps

on a side note i wanted to ask, shouldn't my fuel map have a valley where the meth is spraying. My meth AFRs in boost hold good at 10.8:1. Yet when i shut off the meth, the truck runs right around 11.5:1 without adjusting fuel, which is great, but kinda.... too convenient. Makes me question it. Should i have to be pulling more fuel out during meth then i am? enough to cause a dip in the fuel map. I'm running straight meth, and the pumps at full pressure. My F77x is based off of my target AFRs to keep my F29x nice and smooth.

what do ya think?
 

skwayb

NWSTP
Re: Engine flatlines/jumps

depends on how much meth you are spraying... My tune is for gas right now. If I turn my Alky Control kit on and turn it way up. I can drop the AFR down to a low 9 even high 8's.. WAY too much fuel. So it all depends on how much your kit is spraying.
 

Aeroking

e.i.
Re: Engine flatlines/jumps

the cap on the top left throttle body port had a rip in it. I'm going to replace it and hope for the best.
 

BoostedSUV

Active member
Re: Engine flatlines/jumps

The top left port on the TB doesn't lead to a vacuum source. I had the cap rip on mine as well and when I took it off completely with engine running there wasn't any vacuum from that port. I just left it off. Both stock TB and the BBk I have on there now were that way. Sorry to be a downer!
 

Aeroking

e.i.
Re: Engine flatlines/jumps

i put my finger over it and there was some suction. does that port lead into the top chamber of the TB?
 

BoostedSUV

Active member
Re: Engine flatlines/jumps

Are you sure? I noticed my cap was cracked one day randomly and when I took it off to replace it there wasn't any vacuum coming from that port. to this day that port is still open. You're talking about the larger port above the one that feeds the PCV valve right?
 

Aeroking

e.i.
Re: Engine flatlines/jumps

Are you sure? I noticed my cap was cracked one day randomly and when I took it off to replace it there wasn't any vacuum coming from that port. to this day that port is still open. You're talking about the larger port above the one that feeds the PCV valve right?

yep thats the one. I've replaced that cap several times due to it cracking open. So if its cracking open then there must be pressure/vacuum there.
 

UR50SLO

V6+2=LSXCamaro
Re: Engine flatlines/jumps

Maby your finger has vaccume then.. Humm...

Did you notice any difference with the timing map or was it about the same feeling?

Was just the springs in the WG holding 11psi?

How was the drive the other night?\
~Scott
 
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