Lt250suzuk said:
Guess that was missed in your instructions.
http://www.nwstp.com/jeff/coins.doc
Lt250suzuk said:
Guess that info of your's was wrong as well.
New front suspension being installed
- Thread starter the Sandman
- Start date
Guess that was missed in your instructions.
http://www.nwstp.com/jeff/coins.doc
Guess that info of your's was wrong as well.
the Sandman
Member
I don't recall saying your stuff is "junk" and I have no reason to believe it's not adequate. I AM glad you did a lot of testing with this design. Dennis has done many a-arm front suspensions using the much more common modified OEM ball joint/bushing configuration which is why he could develop his kit so quickly.
Heck, look at the stuff Marty posted on Sportmachines - he's having his front and rear done by Com Fab who apparently are extremely professional in this area. Now of course the Sonoma GT is 2WD not AWD and therefore uses a coil spring up front instead of torsion bars but they also used a modified OEM type setup with bjs and polys on his front suspension.
Al, there seems to be a large gap between what you say and what is. You have explanations and excuses for everything. Res ipsa loquitur.
Heck, look at the stuff Marty posted on Sportmachines - he's having his front and rear done by Com Fab who apparently are extremely professional in this area. Now of course the Sonoma GT is 2WD not AWD and therefore uses a coil spring up front instead of torsion bars but they also used a modified OEM type setup with bjs and polys on his front suspension.
Al, there seems to be a large gap between what you say and what is. You have explanations and excuses for everything. Res ipsa loquitur.
I wish that kit was ready when i purchased mine from al, just for the sake of using the factory ball joints, i like that better, even if the hiems are lighter or stronger.
What is missing off the kit in the picture, (the green suspension) it looks complete.
Only 3 weeks to build and install, thats awesome. I imagine he can have them done even sooner now if he was making jigs along the way in the first kit? So if were to order one today i can see it in a few weeks, right? Powder coated and all?
What is missing off the kit in the picture, (the green suspension) it looks complete.
Only 3 weeks to build and install, thats awesome. I imagine he can have them done even sooner now if he was making jigs along the way in the first kit? So if were to order one today i can see it in a few weeks, right? Powder coated and all?
Loeryder
New member
Only thing missing off the green setup, mine, would be the steering stops.
Thats why you see the lovely scuffage.
Glad Keith picked one of my good side to show everyone :lol:
I've put about 1800 miles on my setup, since I tore it all down and corrected the previous owners mishaps. So far and I am very satisfied with the handling improvements over the torsion bar setup.
I am very anxious to see how the heims hold up.
If anyone is putting serious miles on their coilovers I'd like them to jack up one wheel and see if the heims show any slop in them. Just wiggle the wheel and see if the heim gives in any direction.
Also if anyone has a set of Dustan Steering stops they aren't using please ship them to me!>!>!
Thats why you see the lovely scuffage.
Glad Keith picked one of my good side to show everyone :lol:
I've put about 1800 miles on my setup, since I tore it all down and corrected the previous owners mishaps. So far and I am very satisfied with the handling improvements over the torsion bar setup.
I am very anxious to see how the heims hold up.
If anyone is putting serious miles on their coilovers I'd like them to jack up one wheel and see if the heims show any slop in them. Just wiggle the wheel and see if the heim gives in any direction.
Also if anyone has a set of Dustan Steering stops they aren't using please ship them to me!>!>!
the Sandman
Member
FLSY2730 said:
A few weeks? Easily. The powdercoating is 2-stage, silver than clear. Dennis always makes jigs for precision assemblies - it makes no difference if this is the only set he makes or if he makes 20 sets. They go together fast and they go together identically to all of the other a-arms.
Syclone#892
Member
Ok I am still a newbie and all but after reading this post and several others like it I am surprised we as a community still have any vendors for parts because everyone bashes everyone. When I first got my Sy and was on the board alls I heard about was people bitchin about no getting there pte turbo kits they had ordered from a gp and everyone was just bitchin up a storm, then I heard about a griffin gp that took forever and the same goes for many other things. I am in the gp for Al's Front susp and while yes I would have liked to have it right away I do not mind that I only have half the kit, I don't know maybe its just me but I would rather wait and get a quality product than one that was crapply put together. Maybe its just my bad luck but I wait for everything I buy, waited over 7 months for my exhaust system for my Prelude which was supposed to be shipped out a week after I ordered it, did I call and bitch everyday and make the people know me by my first name because I called so much NO. I waited for the head and cams and various other parts for my prelude for over a month then recieved them and they were for the wrong year sent them back and finally got the new parts but I still had to be refunded money which took months to get that back. Hell should I start a big topic and bash Mike Lee because I ordered stuff from him and haven't got it yet, or he said he would send me an email saying the exact cost but I got no email, I emailed him 2 weeks later and the cost he sent me was too high so should I just bitch about him too. Come on people we should be together not seperated, how can we get any better when the only thing we do good is bitch about people. Even if peps kit was out when I got Als kit I would still have gone to Al he has been in the community for awhile and I know he will not screw me over. Sandman I really liked you and thought you seemed like I stand up kind of guy I have lost all respect for you and many other people on this board. Oh and Sandman your comment about Martys Sonoma gt is wrong, Comp fab is building his rear susp the front control arms are made buy Aim or something like that they are drop control arms that have been out for awhile. Well I will put my flame suit on now and hope that one day everyone can get along somewhat but I know that will never happen. Have a good day everyone.
Syclone#892 said:
You are a very patient person to wait 7 months for a exhaust system, i like to think i am very patient as well, but to wait 6-7 months for parts is to long in my book, hell it only took 2 months to get my brand new motor from mccoy.
How long does it take to build a suspension system? After you have already done several, so it is not like the first kit. I guess if i was told or it was on the website that after you place your order for a complete front suspension system , there will be a 6-8 month delivery time, that would be fine with me. Then i would know not to call and ask where the parts are every month.
I waited a couple of months for a turbo from mike and a month for some other parts and my latest (sheetmetal valve covers) took a couple of months but mike always emailed me or called me letting me know what was up, so i dont mind waiting for parts as long as people are straight up with the 411. When i ordered my front suspension from al and months went by I was told the same thing for a while(it is at the powder coating guy)I would have fired the guy and brought my parts somewhere else to get painted if it was really the problem, i mean give me a break.I think i even said to just send me the parts and forget the paint but they were stuck at the powder coating place, i guess.
Like i said, dont mind waiting but keep people informed and try to keep it under 4-5 months unless that is what is specified before purchasing.
Syclone#892
Member
I share some of the same opinions with you Jack, personally Al never said to me when he would send the kit out the only time I remember Al not telling the truth was when he told everyone they would have there kits by the nats otherwise he never said when the gp kits would be sent, Sytynut said it would take a month but I don't think Al said that. Also I have Paid Al the full amount right away so he would have enough money to buy all the parts. I am glad to here it took 2 months for you to get your McCoy motor but if I am not mistaken 4c fed and tech weasel waited a long time for theres and as far as I know neither of theres runs, 4c feds had lots of problems and tech weasels have noises and some other problems. I can understand most of the wait for Als kit, first his accident which set him back a lot not only with the susp but I bet the work at his shop too, then even if the powder coater did delay him thats just more time, and if he is trying to find someone to buy the heims from I am sure that would take time also being the amount of them he has to buy. You must be very good with Mike because he never called me back or emailed me to let me know what was going on I always had to try and call him which took me forever to get a hold of him but like I said it does not bother me, I think I trust people too much so if I get burned on something it is only my fault but I trust everyone here so I am not fearing getting my parts. You have a hartman tranny also right? I have talked with Brian many times and we have discussed what I want it to do for me and he is figuring out what kind of kit I am going to need, that was like 2-3 months ago and every once and awhile he sends me an email saying he hasn't forgot me but I still have not idea what the price will be or even how long it will take to get the kit but I won't rush him and bitch to the board about it becuase its my business and no one elses. Oh well I have rambled way too much so I will let everyone get back to there vendor bashing.
the Sandman
Member
Syclone#892 said:
Wrong about Comp Fab's part maybe, but the bit about the a-arms using bjs and bushings was right and that was the point.
C'mom, this nonsense with Dustan has been going on for at least a full 8 months now - of course people are going to bitch.
My trans blew last Mother's day and some(better not be all) of my stage IV Hartman kit has arrived, and I'm still waiting for a verifiable tracking number to prove shipping status before giving Al my debit card # to complete my payment. I've run the full gamut of emotions, and now just hover somewhere in the "It'll be here" stage. So no bitching around me, unless you're also looking at $4500 in cashed checks and only have a few hard trans parts and bands/clutches to show for it.
As for the Sandman/heim joint debate here's my $.02
Sy 2185 will be my 3rd street legal vehicle with a tubular heim jointed fornt and/or rear suspensions. My 2wd Nissan was pushing 15+" wheel travel with dual gas tube shocks and custom 2 stage 4 1/2 foot long torsion bars. This truck was hardcore wearing all fiberglass except the doors and roof and a bumper to bumper tube frame setup strong enough to nearly make the ladder bar frame unneeded. My heim joint upper and lower ball joints took more than 3 years of abuse including running chase vehicle and pitting for Ivan Stewart on his Baja race efforts during those years.
Though not the designed axis on which to rotate they're more than strong enough to last and the real treat is ZERO stiction. With no bushings to bind and so much less unsprung weight all the loads are transferred to the dampning system, instead of the chassis, resulting in a night and day difference.
Ivan's front and rear suspension together use over 20 heim joints and his truck is approx. 3000lbs with over 850 hp on 37" tires and has been photographed over 15' in the air while racing. Don't let anyone with any actual off road racing exp. hear you be so adamant about something you clearly know nothing about, or you'll be written off instantly as an idiot.
Jeremy
As for the Sandman/heim joint debate here's my $.02
Sy 2185 will be my 3rd street legal vehicle with a tubular heim jointed fornt and/or rear suspensions. My 2wd Nissan was pushing 15+" wheel travel with dual gas tube shocks and custom 2 stage 4 1/2 foot long torsion bars. This truck was hardcore wearing all fiberglass except the doors and roof and a bumper to bumper tube frame setup strong enough to nearly make the ladder bar frame unneeded. My heim joint upper and lower ball joints took more than 3 years of abuse including running chase vehicle and pitting for Ivan Stewart on his Baja race efforts during those years.
Though not the designed axis on which to rotate they're more than strong enough to last and the real treat is ZERO stiction. With no bushings to bind and so much less unsprung weight all the loads are transferred to the dampning system, instead of the chassis, resulting in a night and day difference.
Ivan's front and rear suspension together use over 20 heim joints and his truck is approx. 3000lbs with over 850 hp on 37" tires and has been photographed over 15' in the air while racing. Don't let anyone with any actual off road racing exp. hear you be so adamant about something you clearly know nothing about, or you'll be written off instantly as an idiot.
Jeremy
the Sandman
Member
PEP builds and repairs Sprint cars, Limited Sprints, and Modifieds. The Sprints use over 50 heim joints each. You could say Dennis is very familiar with them, their proper use, thier limitations. He uses them in custom street applications *where appropriate* such as in 4-link rear suspensions. He would use them in the front setup if he thought the benefits of doing so outweighed the disadvantages. Did I mention Dennis is an engineer?
Comparing Syclones and Typhoons to racecars is absurd. Race cars are lighter, travel on smooth tracks, crash often, and are constantly being taken apart and reassembled both to repair damage and to rebuild or replace parts prone to failure. Often money is not an issue. The smallest amount of weigh savings or the slightest improvement in performance is worthwhile. There is mandated safety equipment, and the cars race on a closed track. If a front suspension part gives out during a race - not good, but not near as bad as during "spirited" on the street maneuvers without all the safety gear and with traffic all around. Offroad race vehicles - also not much in common with SyTys.
You wanna believe that your experience with heim-jointed front suspensions is conclusive - fine - I hope you're right. But consider the weight of the SyTy, the power, the AWD putting additional stress on the front suspension components. Consider driving it hard on the streets, hitting bumps and potholes, 4 wheel drifting under power in the rain. Consider the brutal powerbraking launches. Consider the video Ivan Phipps made with his Typhoon doing donuts. Consider your wife driving with the kids. Now consider how many miles have been driven by vehicles with ball joint and bushing front ends. Billions? Trillions? And how many miles have been driven with heim-jointed front ends? Do you think you could put 50,000 or 100,000 miles on a heim-jointed front suspension without ever lookin' to see how it was holding up? Would you? That's what ball joints give you - proven safety and longevity. With proper engineering this type front setup gives most if not all of the benefits of the heim-jointed setup without the disadvantages.
So call me an idiot for giving my opinion Jeremy, I'm still gonna go with the ball-jointed poly-bushed design...that's what makes sense to me for a street driven SyTy.
Comparing Syclones and Typhoons to racecars is absurd. Race cars are lighter, travel on smooth tracks, crash often, and are constantly being taken apart and reassembled both to repair damage and to rebuild or replace parts prone to failure. Often money is not an issue. The smallest amount of weigh savings or the slightest improvement in performance is worthwhile. There is mandated safety equipment, and the cars race on a closed track. If a front suspension part gives out during a race - not good, but not near as bad as during "spirited" on the street maneuvers without all the safety gear and with traffic all around. Offroad race vehicles - also not much in common with SyTys.
You wanna believe that your experience with heim-jointed front suspensions is conclusive - fine - I hope you're right. But consider the weight of the SyTy, the power, the AWD putting additional stress on the front suspension components. Consider driving it hard on the streets, hitting bumps and potholes, 4 wheel drifting under power in the rain. Consider the brutal powerbraking launches. Consider the video Ivan Phipps made with his Typhoon doing donuts. Consider your wife driving with the kids. Now consider how many miles have been driven by vehicles with ball joint and bushing front ends. Billions? Trillions? And how many miles have been driven with heim-jointed front ends? Do you think you could put 50,000 or 100,000 miles on a heim-jointed front suspension without ever lookin' to see how it was holding up? Would you? That's what ball joints give you - proven safety and longevity. With proper engineering this type front setup gives most if not all of the benefits of the heim-jointed setup without the disadvantages.
So call me an idiot for giving my opinion Jeremy, I'm still gonna go with the ball-jointed poly-bushed design...that's what makes sense to me for a street driven SyTy.
bdubb
I am teh kingpin!
Sandman, just wanted to say thanks to you and Denis for giving us another option here for our suspension.
looks like sombody else was fed up, and took his own charge into this and got a product that might just show up
p.s. Green STILL doesnt have all the parts for his kit, and it was order about a year ago.
looks like sombody else was fed up, and took his own charge into this and got a product that might just show up
p.s. Green STILL doesnt have all the parts for his kit, and it was order about a year ago.
Apology... maybe idiot is too strong. sorry. I'm aware of the difference between sy/tys and race cars/trucks, and fully agree that what makes the biggest difference is the the two setups is one(heim joints) are designed for 100 percent performance and are not "set it and forget it" like ball joints and bushings.
Good points, but I'd have to stick to my thought that off roading is much more strenuous than street/drag in a sy. Aside form once underestimating the force excerted on a rear axle locating bar and the required load rating of the joint, I've never had one fail. Even after plowing the front end so hard off a hidden drop off that the motor mount bolts sheared from the stress.
For sure not for the everyday driver.
Jeremy
Good points, but I'd have to stick to my thought that off roading is much more strenuous than street/drag in a sy. Aside form once underestimating the force excerted on a rear axle locating bar and the required load rating of the joint, I've never had one fail. Even after plowing the front end so hard off a hidden drop off that the motor mount bolts sheared from the stress.
For sure not for the everyday driver.
Jeremy
As far as the Heims for offroad usage, and wear and tear, this was a big question of mine for Al. I'm into Jeep stuff, and many owners that wheel their TJ's (newest version of Wrangler), do so in dual duty fashion, offroad & daily driven. They have been going to long arm kits that replace the factory control arms. Typically the kits (well some of them) use Heims at all joints. Ya know what, they wear out, and get noisy, and break. Some of it is by purely on-road useage. Rubber bushings are really considered a better option at this point, by most of them.
I'm real leery to use them on a Syclone, where I believe some forces may be worse. Even if they are similar, I know of too many horror stories from offroading incidents, of heims breaking, linkage breaking.
I'm no suspension expert, just relaying my observations.
I'm real leery to use them on a Syclone, where I believe some forces may be worse. Even if they are similar, I know of too many horror stories from offroading incidents, of heims breaking, linkage breaking.
I'm no suspension expert, just relaying my observations.
20psiGMC
Member
the Sandman said:
Apparently these factors were not a consideration for you when you ordered Al’s kit? Or just not enough of a consideration when Al’s was the only kit available? Perhaps you had not cleared the design with “Dennis”?
the Sandman said:
You mean it makes sense to you now. The questions is, now that you’re angry with DPT, now that you have been enlightened by Dennis, or now that you have a choice?
I sense a disparity here, and question the true motive of your “concern” when considering the facts:
Sandman anxiously ordered a DPT C/O kit.
Sandman Received poor service from DPT and became upset.
Sandman contracted a long-time associate to build him a C/O kit.
Sandman now speculates as to the design integrity and application of the DPT kit.
Hmmmm… “Res Ipsa Loquitur” indeed…
the Sandman
Member
Listen, I feel sorry for everyone who has been involved with the Dustan GP - for several reasons. Don't project your disappointments and doubts to me - it ain't my fault. I (as I suspect were many others) was dazzled by the post on the BB last year about the Dustan equipped Syclone besting a Z06 'Vette at the GM Proving Grounds. The pictures and descriptions on his website looked good - to my uneducated impressionable mind. Then SYTYNUT - a respected member of the community known to dabble in the high performance aspect of SyTys came out in support of Dustan and offering a Group Purchase with his unqualified endorsement. Haven't heard from him LATELY on this issue though...
Anyhow, after months and months of broken promises and disappointments I decided to ask Dennis if he wanted to make the fronts. He knew I had ordered the Dustan stuff but had never seen the pictures or read the descriptions - based on my excitement and enthusiasm he had assumed it was a solid design, a quality kit. Not to mince words, once he saw the pictures, read the descriptions, looked at ALL of the stuff at Dustan's website - he told me he flat out would not have installed it on the Syclone. He educated me in the design and construction of front suspensions - at least to a level where I can understand the basic concepts.
So yeah, this is my opinion NOW. When I ordered the Dustan kit I was ignorant. I wish I knew then what I know now. At least I paid by credit card and was able to dispute the charges. This has been a bad experience for a number of people. Just think how much money of ours he was sitting on for so long. Tens of thousands of dollars. Well I'm glad he never delivered my parts which permitted me to recoup all of my outlay ($1650).
Don't be pissed at me - be pissed at Dustan, at SYTYNUT, at yourself for ordering this kit in the first place. That's how I feel. I can tell you that I learned a lesson for myself.
Anyhow, after months and months of broken promises and disappointments I decided to ask Dennis if he wanted to make the fronts. He knew I had ordered the Dustan stuff but had never seen the pictures or read the descriptions - based on my excitement and enthusiasm he had assumed it was a solid design, a quality kit. Not to mince words, once he saw the pictures, read the descriptions, looked at ALL of the stuff at Dustan's website - he told me he flat out would not have installed it on the Syclone. He educated me in the design and construction of front suspensions - at least to a level where I can understand the basic concepts.
So yeah, this is my opinion NOW. When I ordered the Dustan kit I was ignorant. I wish I knew then what I know now. At least I paid by credit card and was able to dispute the charges. This has been a bad experience for a number of people. Just think how much money of ours he was sitting on for so long. Tens of thousands of dollars. Well I'm glad he never delivered my parts which permitted me to recoup all of my outlay ($1650).
Don't be pissed at me - be pissed at Dustan, at SYTYNUT, at yourself for ordering this kit in the first place. That's how I feel. I can tell you that I learned a lesson for myself.
20psiGMC
Member
An honest response – I respect that. :k::
I must admit the lengthy delivery has not been an issue with me, since my truck has been down in the interim pending other modifications.
I have (I think) a pretty good working knowledge of the laws of physics/design, and decent mechanical skills. I am not, however, an engineer, nor a suspension expert. Every question I have had in regards to Al’s designs he has answered completely and without hesitation. CAD structural stress analysis, destructive testing, remote sensor torsional measurements and weld radiography are all procedures I am familiar with (from work) and are usually not indicative of someone who is a novice or uneducated in design. Al gives every indication from his background (engineering, TRW, I believe) and familiarity with the design principles that he is knowledgeable in the field.
Then there is the hard data. Many list and BB members have ridden in Al’s truck or others equipped with his kit(s). So far I haven’t heard of one person who was not impressed with the performance. This may not speak to longevity or strength, but the design certainly seems excellent performance-wise. I think it’s somewhat logical to conclude that if enough time and development was spent to produce a good design functionally, then a good measure of consideration must have also been given to structural integrity as well, especially with the liability involved.
In the end it’s always best to base your decisions on experience and not speculation or conjecture. You have had a continuing good experience with Dennis/PEP and you trust him. That’s logical. He tells you Al’s design has shortcomings and you believe him. I guess I can’t blame you. Please keep in mind, though, that there are experts on this board in other areas of our truck's mechanicals that have differing opinions – and both produce results. Hopefully both the DPT and PEP designs will prove functional and reliable with differing advantages from differing designs. Time will tell.
As mentioned, there are several members that frequent this BB that are friends of Al and/or have his kits on their trucks. If they have developed any concerns in regards to the longevity or strength of his designs from practical experience, I would certainly like to hear it. Merk? WindedV6? Jim Fawks? SYTYNUT? Jason Leach? WarmPancakes? Elsewise I am going to stand by the original testimonies laid down a year ago (and my subsequent deductions) and maintain belief that Al is knowledgeable in his field and does manufacture a quality product, aside from some obvious delivery issues.
k:: I must admit the lengthy delivery has not been an issue with me, since my truck has been down in the interim pending other modifications.
I have (I think) a pretty good working knowledge of the laws of physics/design, and decent mechanical skills. I am not, however, an engineer, nor a suspension expert. Every question I have had in regards to Al’s designs he has answered completely and without hesitation. CAD structural stress analysis, destructive testing, remote sensor torsional measurements and weld radiography are all procedures I am familiar with (from work) and are usually not indicative of someone who is a novice or uneducated in design. Al gives every indication from his background (engineering, TRW, I believe) and familiarity with the design principles that he is knowledgeable in the field.
Then there is the hard data. Many list and BB members have ridden in Al’s truck or others equipped with his kit(s). So far I haven’t heard of one person who was not impressed with the performance. This may not speak to longevity or strength, but the design certainly seems excellent performance-wise. I think it’s somewhat logical to conclude that if enough time and development was spent to produce a good design functionally, then a good measure of consideration must have also been given to structural integrity as well, especially with the liability involved.
In the end it’s always best to base your decisions on experience and not speculation or conjecture. You have had a continuing good experience with Dennis/PEP and you trust him. That’s logical. He tells you Al’s design has shortcomings and you believe him. I guess I can’t blame you. Please keep in mind, though, that there are experts on this board in other areas of our truck's mechanicals that have differing opinions – and both produce results. Hopefully both the DPT and PEP designs will prove functional and reliable with differing advantages from differing designs. Time will tell.
As mentioned, there are several members that frequent this BB that are friends of Al and/or have his kits on their trucks. If they have developed any concerns in regards to the longevity or strength of his designs from practical experience, I would certainly like to hear it. Merk? WindedV6? Jim Fawks? SYTYNUT? Jason Leach? WarmPancakes? Elsewise I am going to stand by the original testimonies laid down a year ago (and my subsequent deductions) and maintain belief that Al is knowledgeable in his field and does manufacture a quality product, aside from some obvious delivery issues.
the Sandman
Member
There are 2 different aspects to this issue - Dustan's handling of the GP and balljoint vs heimjoint front ends. I have a problem with way the GP was handled and at the point when I was charged the balance with promises of immediate delivery and received nothing I made my displeasure known publiclly and made arrangements to get my front end elsewhere. If you look at the start of this thread you'll notice I didn't mention Dustan in regard to the quality or design of his kit - I just showed pictures of the PEP kit with links to their website. The discussions that followed developd from what other people besides me posted. That's the nature of the BB. I stand by my opinion but reiterate: I never said Dustan's kit was junk nor do I have any specific reason to believe it's inadequate. I think that balljoint front ends make more sense than heimjoint front ends in our application. I think the PEP setup is well made and well engineered. I've made my choice, you all will make your choices, this discussion will go on for a while and then fade away, and life in the SyTy kingdom will continue.